That sounds like some Japanese super hero or something. I'm not sure what any of us can do except form something like the NRA, but for users/enthusiasts of super-happy-fun-slicey-friend type objects. And yes I thought about writing my congressman/woman but since I don't contribute to their campaigns I'm not sure they would listen. :pSoCal Operator wrote:Knife-fellows, I believe our position as devout tool-users is clear: We must, as a group, discontinue use of the word "knife." Mr. Brown states that carrying a knife is unacceptable, but he mentions nothing about carrying a super-happy-fun-slicey-friend. Spread the word.
Bad News for UK knife lovers
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mrappraisit
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After enlightenment, the laundry.
IMHO you are absolutely correctBolstermanic wrote:Politicians are very competent at doing what matters most (to them), getting elected. If there weren't a sizable number of nutty people supporting their actions, they wouldn't enact the nutty laws they do. Forcing people to behave in ways that the majority of the electorate finds reprehensible is a function reserved for the judiciary, not the legislature, in the USA. Once you're a judge you don't answer to anybody.
Are politicians in UK any different than ours?Bolstermanic wrote: At any rate, I'm off topic: this is a British issue, and so I wish 'strength and honor' to my knife bros in Britain...hope you have a well organized opposition to the knife banners.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
My top choices Natives5, Calys, C83 Persian
My top choices Natives5, Calys, C83 Persian
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mrappraisit
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- Location: AZ,480
I agree with most of what has already been said here. I am a Ph.D candidate in Philosophy and I have done some legal theory in the past; to put things succinctly, two things seem to be going on whenever politicians/lawmakers react to stuff like knife and gun crime: 1)ban/prohibit the ownership or carry of the knife or gun by all citizens, and 2) increase the severity of the punishment for breaching the statutes made by (1).
The problem with (1) is the idea called 'overcriminalization'. This basically means that the state makes some activity, x, a crime, when most all people doing x do not act in a criminally liable fashion. When x = 'possession of a knife', most all people possessing a knife are not doing so with criminal intent. So, we overcriminalize knife possession so as to try to prevent the small minority of those who carry knives with criminal intent. What happens then is that those who originally possessed knives resposibly are made into criminals, while the criminals who were possessing knives for malicious purposes will continue to do so regardless of the law forbidding. Everyone loses. Laws meant to deter knife crime should deter those who would have been a criminal but for the law coming into effect. But if said criminal had the intent to stab someone prior to the law coming into effect, is the law against knife possessing going to prevent the knife-criminal from merely possessing the knife? Not a chance. Someone who was willing to stab someone with a knife is not going to be deterred by a law that now forbid knife carry (since he was already willing to breach the laws that forbid assault, murder, mayhem, ect.).
Now, the second idea that comes with this sort of legislation: If lawmakers increase the severity of punishments for said behavior in the hopes of deterring that behavior by the criminal element, then two things happen: a) Police are more reluctant to arrest someone for the new crime, and b)if police do arrest, and prosecution is succesful, judges are a lot less likely to hand down such a disproportionately severe punishment. Both (a) and (b) defeat the purpose of increasing the punishment for a certain crime (which would be to deter criminals) because criminals will begin to realize that police are reluctant to make the arrest, and judges less likely to hand down the severe punishment. A lot more interesting things can be said here. But for brevity sake, I'll end here.
As most people have astutely pointed out, the best and only way to deal with these crimes is to address the underlying causes.
-Mike
The problem with (1) is the idea called 'overcriminalization'. This basically means that the state makes some activity, x, a crime, when most all people doing x do not act in a criminally liable fashion. When x = 'possession of a knife', most all people possessing a knife are not doing so with criminal intent. So, we overcriminalize knife possession so as to try to prevent the small minority of those who carry knives with criminal intent. What happens then is that those who originally possessed knives resposibly are made into criminals, while the criminals who were possessing knives for malicious purposes will continue to do so regardless of the law forbidding. Everyone loses. Laws meant to deter knife crime should deter those who would have been a criminal but for the law coming into effect. But if said criminal had the intent to stab someone prior to the law coming into effect, is the law against knife possessing going to prevent the knife-criminal from merely possessing the knife? Not a chance. Someone who was willing to stab someone with a knife is not going to be deterred by a law that now forbid knife carry (since he was already willing to breach the laws that forbid assault, murder, mayhem, ect.).
Now, the second idea that comes with this sort of legislation: If lawmakers increase the severity of punishments for said behavior in the hopes of deterring that behavior by the criminal element, then two things happen: a) Police are more reluctant to arrest someone for the new crime, and b)if police do arrest, and prosecution is succesful, judges are a lot less likely to hand down such a disproportionately severe punishment. Both (a) and (b) defeat the purpose of increasing the punishment for a certain crime (which would be to deter criminals) because criminals will begin to realize that police are reluctant to make the arrest, and judges less likely to hand down the severe punishment. A lot more interesting things can be said here. But for brevity sake, I'll end here.
As most people have astutely pointed out, the best and only way to deal with these crimes is to address the underlying causes.
-Mike
"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the more often and steadily we reflect upon them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me." -Immanuel Kant
"I do not worry about what will happen; only what needs to be done". -Lucious Hunt, "The Village"
"I do not worry about what will happen; only what needs to be done". -Lucious Hunt, "The Village"
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huugh
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diaBECKtic
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- Location: Chicago, IL
@ cockroach: I'm familiar with that concept, but what exactly constitutes "good reason" in merry 'ol England?
@ Bolstermaniac: Yeah - I know they're quite good at doing that. They're also quite good at breaking a lot of those empty promises, too. I think that I was getting at nearly exactly the same point that I'll address below.
@ Episteme: What you said is almost exactly how I view the whole thing. Basically, "one rotten apple spoils the whole bunch." Again, most of these measures are designed to be public-appeasing quick fixes that DO shaft most of the general public (well, at least in America - the land of the free and the home of the brave). I also strongly agree with (what I think was) your second (main) point; I forgot to put it in my previous reply. If someone is truly, completely of the mindset that they're going to kill someone else, they will stop at nothing to do so. If one type of weapon is simply not available, s/he will find another one; if another type of weapon is "illegal" s/he'll find a way to illegally obtain it. This brings us back to another key point: why have the law? It obviously didn't deter that person from doing it, and now someone else is dead as a result. I guess we fortunately DO have laws regarding murder that address this issue, but at that point it's "too little too late." In medicine they say that "prevention is the best cure," but it's incredibly hard - if not impossible - to apply that to human behavior.
I'm no philosopher, but as my grandparents say - "I read a lot."
Giddy-up.
:D
@ Bolstermaniac: Yeah - I know they're quite good at doing that. They're also quite good at breaking a lot of those empty promises, too. I think that I was getting at nearly exactly the same point that I'll address below.
@ Episteme: What you said is almost exactly how I view the whole thing. Basically, "one rotten apple spoils the whole bunch." Again, most of these measures are designed to be public-appeasing quick fixes that DO shaft most of the general public (well, at least in America - the land of the free and the home of the brave). I also strongly agree with (what I think was) your second (main) point; I forgot to put it in my previous reply. If someone is truly, completely of the mindset that they're going to kill someone else, they will stop at nothing to do so. If one type of weapon is simply not available, s/he will find another one; if another type of weapon is "illegal" s/he'll find a way to illegally obtain it. This brings us back to another key point: why have the law? It obviously didn't deter that person from doing it, and now someone else is dead as a result. I guess we fortunately DO have laws regarding murder that address this issue, but at that point it's "too little too late." In medicine they say that "prevention is the best cure," but it's incredibly hard - if not impossible - to apply that to human behavior.
I'm no philosopher, but as my grandparents say - "I read a lot."
Giddy-up.
:D
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SoCal Operator
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- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:28 pm
- Location: 36.99769 -122.06588
Something like Knife Rights? :Dmrappraisit wrote: I'm not sure what any of us can do except form something like the NRA, but for users/enthusiasts of super-happy-fun-slicey-friend type objects.
Ask me where I got my awesome SUPERHAWK!
More like Mid-Cal now
Be Prepared
More like Mid-Cal now
Be Prepared
There is one fatal and misguided philosophical assumption made in the modern Western world.
Laws protect us from crime.
This is flatly untrue. Laws punish criminals, and we would hope that this would deter crime in some way. However this is generally not true, or limited at best.
Some think that if we outlaw weapons, then we limit the available "pool" of weapons to draw from. In turn having an over all impact on the total number of deaths by said weapon Again, this might have some limited effect, but it does not work. If this were true, then the streets of America would be free of crack, meth, and cocaine. There are more than enough parties in this world, interested in arming the criminals of this country. We can't stop the illegal flow of drugs into this country, you think we could stop the illegal trade in firearms?
If a LEO was camping in your front yard, then they could use law to stop crime. I have quite a few friends in law enforcement... and they will tell you. More often than not, they show AFTER someone is shot, stabbed, raped, killed...
Law is there to prosecute and punish the criminal, however "laws" will never protect us from all harm.
Laws protect us from crime.
This is flatly untrue. Laws punish criminals, and we would hope that this would deter crime in some way. However this is generally not true, or limited at best.
Some think that if we outlaw weapons, then we limit the available "pool" of weapons to draw from. In turn having an over all impact on the total number of deaths by said weapon Again, this might have some limited effect, but it does not work. If this were true, then the streets of America would be free of crack, meth, and cocaine. There are more than enough parties in this world, interested in arming the criminals of this country. We can't stop the illegal flow of drugs into this country, you think we could stop the illegal trade in firearms?
If a LEO was camping in your front yard, then they could use law to stop crime. I have quite a few friends in law enforcement... and they will tell you. More often than not, they show AFTER someone is shot, stabbed, raped, killed...
Law is there to prosecute and punish the criminal, however "laws" will never protect us from all harm.
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SoCal Operator
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El Comanche
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- Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:16 pm
- Location: Seattle, WA
Re:
Wow guys, I was not sure if this was too much of a non-spyderco post, but from all the responses, I can see that we all feel the same. I look at knife carry first as a tool, but also very much for self defense.
I think it is a basic human right, regardless of what country you live in. I do think we need an organization, but the problem is that groups like the NRA(don't get me wrong, I'm all for gun ownership, I have an arsenal) immediately get tied to a political party, so if you are pro gun(or knife), and you donate money, you also have to agree to sending money to someone who is possibly anti-abortion, religiously intolerant, pro war or ignorant of climate change. The majority of America is neither far right or far left, and I don't like having to make that choice.
We need an organization that has no political affiliation, that purely defends the right for all humans to defend themselves.
I bring this up not to start a political debate, but to say we need a way for ALL pro gun/pro knife/defense folks in all countries to be able to unite for our common cause- E
I think it is a basic human right, regardless of what country you live in. I do think we need an organization, but the problem is that groups like the NRA(don't get me wrong, I'm all for gun ownership, I have an arsenal) immediately get tied to a political party, so if you are pro gun(or knife), and you donate money, you also have to agree to sending money to someone who is possibly anti-abortion, religiously intolerant, pro war or ignorant of climate change. The majority of America is neither far right or far left, and I don't like having to make that choice.
We need an organization that has no political affiliation, that purely defends the right for all humans to defend themselves.
I bring this up not to start a political debate, but to say we need a way for ALL pro gun/pro knife/defense folks in all countries to be able to unite for our common cause- E
What's the difference between a Republican and a Democrat?
A Republican wants to raise your taxes a little less then a Democrat and they both disagree on which freedoms you should have taken away . . .
A Republican wants to raise your taxes a little less then a Democrat and they both disagree on which freedoms you should have taken away . . .
..I believe that there may be merit in discouraging people from carrying any weapon on their persons if they intend to consume alcohol and/or are frequent places which exclusively serve alcohol [and Im not talking about the local diner - Im talking about late night pubs and clubs]. We accept drink driving laws - we aren't allowed to be in control of heavy machinery when under the influence of drugs/alcohol, we drive with particular vigilance when we are around drunk people who may stumble in front of our vehicles...
...would not discouraging the carry of weapons in such environments be potentially useful?
...would not discouraging the carry of weapons in such environments be potentially useful?
Hi DiaBECKtic,
Good reason in England would cover such things as carrying a fixed blade knife while wilderness camping, a filleting knife when fishing, a Spydie Rescue (locking) knife when kayaking etc.
Unfortunately you would probably be unable to convince a police officer that you had any good reason to have a locking knife in your jeans pocket in town. It specifically does not include just in case, or I use it all the time, it's just handy to have and so on.
So thanks for the UKPK, and I'm looking forward to the Urban. Totally legal, without having to justify them to anyone.
Good reason in England would cover such things as carrying a fixed blade knife while wilderness camping, a filleting knife when fishing, a Spydie Rescue (locking) knife when kayaking etc.
Unfortunately you would probably be unable to convince a police officer that you had any good reason to have a locking knife in your jeans pocket in town. It specifically does not include just in case, or I use it all the time, it's just handy to have and so on.
So thanks for the UKPK, and I'm looking forward to the Urban. Totally legal, without having to justify them to anyone.
Keep it simple stupid
Just to clarify, we have had a lot of knife deaths over here recently mainly in the inner citys and gang related, this is the typical knee jerk reaction from politicians to appease the public.
Knife carrying here is still legal (albeit governed by type and length) if you have a reason, what Mr Brown is aiming at here is the gang culture where it "is cool" to carry a knife or stab someone. Also the fact he is plumetting in the popularity stakes as Britians worst ever Prime Minister makes this an even more must do for him, to try to regain popularity with the electorate.
At this time personally as a law abiding citizen I am not concerved about what he is proposing to do and as someone in an earlier post said they will just substitute the knife for something else, the present trend is a screwdriver as when caught they can just say they are/were about to do some D.I.Y. work.
I think we all must remember especially all our politicians Knives dont kill people...people kill people!
The gun ban over here has in no way stopped those who chose to have guns from getting or using them!
Its all political spin and madness! :mad:
Knife carrying here is still legal (albeit governed by type and length) if you have a reason, what Mr Brown is aiming at here is the gang culture where it "is cool" to carry a knife or stab someone. Also the fact he is plumetting in the popularity stakes as Britians worst ever Prime Minister makes this an even more must do for him, to try to regain popularity with the electorate.
At this time personally as a law abiding citizen I am not concerved about what he is proposing to do and as someone in an earlier post said they will just substitute the knife for something else, the present trend is a screwdriver as when caught they can just say they are/were about to do some D.I.Y. work.
I think we all must remember especially all our politicians Knives dont kill people...people kill people!
The gun ban over here has in no way stopped those who chose to have guns from getting or using them!
Its all political spin and madness! :mad:
:spyder: IAN UK Collector #116.
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vampyrewolf
- Member
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
Bah, lets just ban everything.... go around nude.
Homo Sapien's evolution through tools...
*first we started with long pointy sticks to get insects out... ooo... stabby...
*then we started clubbing bigger animals and ripping them apart to eat.
*then we had to get further away from the bigger animals to kill them... spears, longer pointy sticks....
*then we started throwing spears for more safety... birth of projectile weapons.
*better tips came in to effect, eventually someone realized that a thin edge sliced the **** out of their hand, and tried it on a leg of mammoth.
eventually we developed axes & knives to make life easier.
Lets ban everything. Construction workers face falls, missing limbs and crush injuries daily. So lets ban buildings more than 2' off the ground. oh, wait, you can step down wrong and break a leg from 6"... lets ban anything thats not built of dirt. And now that we're not building anything from lumber and steel we no longer need saws, and we've saved all those limbs and fingers. Crush injuries though, we better limit EVERYTHING heavier than a feather.
Quick, which weighs more... a ton of bricks or a ton of feathers? :rolleyes:
Never mind an educated populace being a dangerous one... papercuts, binders upside the head, weapons of math instruction (quick lets give everyone an item with 2 sharp points then teach em stuff that got folks burned as heretics 2000 years ago).
Want to bet what kids get stabbed with more often? pencils or knives... quick, time's running out on that million dollar question.
Most stabbings are done with kitchen knives, screwdrivers and pens. weapons of opportunity
I say we go around nude and forgo all tools... take evolution back a few million years. Oh wait... you can still gouge someone's eye out with your thumb... better drug everyone up till they forget how to speak.
We'll still throw feces like our simian cousins have been doing all this time.
Homo Sapien's evolution through tools...
*first we started with long pointy sticks to get insects out... ooo... stabby...
*then we started clubbing bigger animals and ripping them apart to eat.
*then we had to get further away from the bigger animals to kill them... spears, longer pointy sticks....
*then we started throwing spears for more safety... birth of projectile weapons.
*better tips came in to effect, eventually someone realized that a thin edge sliced the **** out of their hand, and tried it on a leg of mammoth.
eventually we developed axes & knives to make life easier.
Lets ban everything. Construction workers face falls, missing limbs and crush injuries daily. So lets ban buildings more than 2' off the ground. oh, wait, you can step down wrong and break a leg from 6"... lets ban anything thats not built of dirt. And now that we're not building anything from lumber and steel we no longer need saws, and we've saved all those limbs and fingers. Crush injuries though, we better limit EVERYTHING heavier than a feather.
Quick, which weighs more... a ton of bricks or a ton of feathers? :rolleyes:
Never mind an educated populace being a dangerous one... papercuts, binders upside the head, weapons of math instruction (quick lets give everyone an item with 2 sharp points then teach em stuff that got folks burned as heretics 2000 years ago).
Want to bet what kids get stabbed with more often? pencils or knives... quick, time's running out on that million dollar question.
Most stabbings are done with kitchen knives, screwdrivers and pens. weapons of opportunity
I say we go around nude and forgo all tools... take evolution back a few million years. Oh wait... you can still gouge someone's eye out with your thumb... better drug everyone up till they forget how to speak.
We'll still throw feces like our simian cousins have been doing all this time.
Coffee before Conciousness
Why do people worry more if you argue with your voices than if you just talk with them? What about if you lose those arguements?
Slowly going crazy at work... they found a way to make the voices work too.
Why do people worry more if you argue with your voices than if you just talk with them? What about if you lose those arguements?
Slowly going crazy at work... they found a way to make the voices work too.
Yeah you're right, beds are dangerous too.
A lot of people die in a bed, ban, ban, ban.
A lot of people die in a bed, ban, ban, ban.
All your knifelinks, http://www.knifelinksportal.com
:spyder: :spyder: :cool: :spyder: :spyder:1,000,000,000,000,000,000% agreed!mrappraisit wrote:That sounds like some Japanese super hero or something. I'm not sure what any of us can do except form something like the NRA, but for users/enthusiasts of super-happy-fun-slicey-friend type objects. And yes I thought about writing my congressman/woman but since I don't contribute to their campaigns I'm not sure they would listen. :p
Starting a NTA(National Tool Asosiation)is a great idea :) I used the word tool, because they are not veiwed as weapons, which is what any material item you put in the wrong hands can be....Vehicles for one :rolleyes:
:spyder: :spyder: :cool: :spyder: :spyder: "Spyderco...does a pocket good":spyder:
Spyderco Rocks!!!! "A wise man once said all knives were created equal...Obviously, he meant Spydercos''
As of 1-29-08, I am a proud member of Knife Rights!
Spyderco Rocks!!!! "A wise man once said all knives were created equal...Obviously, he meant Spydercos''
As of 1-29-08, I am a proud member of Knife Rights!