A Few Questions

[diaBECKtic]

Alas, it's been a while since I've posted last. I've unfortunately been busy with that thing called college. Anywho, I'm actually in near-by Denver for an internship this summer so I figured that now would be a good time to both ask a few questions and possibly take a trip out to Golden and visit the factory.

1. Could someone either tell me about or refer me to a source that details all the knife laws in the United States? I know that the laws pertaining to carrying them are enforced at the state level for the most part. Quick story: I was almost fired from my previous job because I carried my knife for use at work (I worked in a hospital kitchen and often needed something to cut up garbage, etc.). Anyways, I'm from just outside of Chicago, and I know some of (and vehemently disagree with all of) the knife laws there. Apparently, in Illinois you can't carry anything with a blade length greater than 3". However, my employer here in Colorado says that she didn't think there was any restriction on blade length here.

2. That being said, I would like to know what would be knives that are "safe" for me to carry in ANY state. I guess I'd be partial to Spyderco, since this IS the company forum, and I suppose it'd have to have a blade length of less than 3". Other alternative suggestions are also welcome, of course.

3. Is there anything cool to do out near Golden/the factory? As I said earlier in this post, I would like to visit the factory sometime but I'm kind of limited by public transportation (i.e. RTD) since I don't have a car.

Thanks in advance!
:D

[McBain]

There are certainly more qualified people than me on this forum to answer your questions 1 & 3, but I know that you might need a blade smaller than 3" to be legal anywhere (in the US). The Chicago metropolitan area restricts knives to 2 1/2" or smaller... :mad:
(I am not a lwayer nor am I citing the written law, so please look that up...)

UKPK FTW !!!

[JulianH]

Hi diaBECKtic,

there's another question that would be very interesting: Which knife is allowed to be carried all over the world?

Wouldn't this be a great question? :)

Regards,

Julian

[BHDKnifer]

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

[diaBECKtic]

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

Thanks. I suppose my main problem with this legislation is this: anything can be a "weapon" if you try hard enough. For instance, you could easily strangle somebody to death with a pair of headphones. Therefore, it would be considered a "weapon" by most legal definitions IF IT WERE USED AS SUCH. By the same token, wouldn't you have to be using a knife as a weapon for it to be considered as such? Based on the wording of a lot of those laws in the link, it seems that a knife is automatically assumed to be a weapon regardless of whether it is used with mal-intent or not.

My biggest issue is with the legal "lengths." The point being this: if you are of the mindset that you're going to commit a crime no matter what, it does not matter what length the weapon is. If you stab somebody multiple times with a knife, it does not matter (practically speaking) if it is 2", 4", 8", etc. I suppose this also goes back to the "guns don't kill people - people kill people" argument. An inanimate object is harmless without something that imubes it with that quality (i.e. a human). Again, in the first page of the link, it states that even though many of these laws are either outdated or misinterpreted THEY ARE STILL ENFORCED. I percieve this to be either a double standard or pure incompetence.

*sigh*

I guess this is yet ANOTHER reason to dislike the government...

[yablanowitz]

They don't have to make sense, they're laws. Which is to say, they are a way that a bunch of lawyers used to look like they were doing something about crime, without comitting political suicide by actually doing something about crime.

As for a knife that is legal everywhere, there is no such thing, unless it is made out of foam rubber. Even the Ladybug can't be carried on a plane. As for one legal everywhere on the ground, better keep it under 2", non-locking and minimum of two hands to open. Better yet, two hands and at least one pair of pliers to open.

[diaBECKtic]

They don't have to make sense, they're laws. Which is to say, they are a way that a bunch of lawyers used to look like they were doing something about crime, without comitting political suicide by actually doing something about crime.

As for a knife that is legal everywhere, there is no such thing, unless it is made out of foam rubber. Even the Ladybug can't be carried on a plane. As for one legal everywhere on the ground, better keep it under 2", non-locking and minimum of two hands to open. Better yet, two hands and at least one pair of pliers to open.

Yeah, I'm aware of the fact that there isn't something that is legal "everywhere." However, I was able to get my knife out here to Colorado via plane by packing it in my suitcase. The TSA simply states that you can't have it as a carry-on, but that you may put it in with your checked luggage. I put my Pacific Salt in my water bottle (with my SureFire flashlight), placed it in my bag, and - lo-and-behold - it was still in my bag when I got to my place of residence.
:)

Just a little background here: the Spyderco knives that I own are the Native III CE, and the Pacific Salt PE. I love both of these knives a lot, but unfortunately, the former has a blade length of 3.125" and the latter has a blade length of 3.8125". Since I'm from Illinois, and in Colorado for the summer, I'll cite these two passages:

Colorado - Criminal Code Section 18-12-101. Definitions...
(f) "Knife" means any
dagger, dirk, knife, or stiletto with a blade over 3-1/2
inches in length, or any other dangerous instrument
capable of inflicting cutting, stabbing, or tearing
wounds, but does not include a hunting or fishing knife
carried for sports use. The issue that a knife is a
hunting or fishing knife must be raised as an affirmative
defense.

Illinois Criminal Code 720 ILCS 5/24-1. Unlawful Use of...
720 ILCS 5/33A-1... A person is considered armed with a
dangerous weapon... when he carries on or about his person
or is otherwise armed with a category I or category II
weapon. (b) A category I weapon is a [firearm or] a knife
with a blade at least 3 inches in length, dagger, dirk,
switchblade knife, stiletto, or any other deadly or
dangerous weapon of like character.

By these definitions, my Native III is legal in Colorado, but not Illinois, and my Pacific Salt is legal in neither. I will also assume that a knife does NOT fit the category if "dangerous weapon" if it is less than 3" in length (based on the wording there). No #*$!ing politician can tell me I'm wrong in that respect, since neither of these wordings EXPLICITLY state that something is illegal if it is less than the described length. Since I do not have the time to read all 50 states' laws in depth, for practical purposes I'll go with the assumption that MOST states are "ok" with a blade that is less than 3" in length.

I looked at a few of the Spyderco knives that have blade lengths of less than 3". Needless to say, there are obviously a smaller number of knives that fit this criteria, but I think I found a cool one nonetheless: the Spyderco S. At first, I thought this was a queer-looking knife but for some reason I've grown to liking it a bit. At 2.4375", it definately fits McBain's (vauge?) recollection of CHICAGO area limits. Does anyone have either a review or opinion of this knife? I searched the web and couldn't find much about it, but it seems kind of...unique (and more importantly - legal).

Thanks in advance!

[yablanowitz]

I don't have one myself, as I use my knives too hard to trust the skeletonized blade for anything over opening mail. I can tell you it is more or less the love child of the R and the Salsa. It has the compression lock and general size of the Salsa, but narrowed down, streamlined and hollowed out like the R. There have been a few reviews posted, but it has been a while, so you will have to search for them.

[The Deacon]

One thing to keep in mind. You can get fired from a job for carrying a knife that is perfectly legal, if carrying it is against company policy.

Also, I am not a lawyer, but I believe the 3.5" limit in Colorado only applies if the knife is concealed and that clipped carry is not considered concealed carry there. Someone from Spyderco may be able to verify it that's correct or not, since at least some of them carry things like the Military occasionally. :D

[Agent Starling]

Wonder how up to date this site is...? Another thing you might try is your state legislature's web site, should list all the statutes in your state and would most likely be the most up-to-date, according to an attorney of my acquaintance...you could start with the criminal code, but there may be relevant laws scattered within other sections as well...

Agent Starling

[The Mastiff]

AKTI has a page to help with the legal aspect of knife ownership. Anything from researching laws to helping find a knife law knowledgeable attorney in your area. http://www.akti.org/legisl.html

[motorep]

To your Colorado legality question- call Denver Police Dept. The only person I know who's ever been given grief over a knife is a customer of mine who was carrying a swtchblade, at his place of business in Denver. It was returned to him with his promise that it would stay in his safe. You'll see plenty of people with openly carried fixed blade knives.

To your Golden question- there's the Coors brewery, where I believe they give tours, and the Spyderco factory where they don't. You do owe yourself a visit to the SFO, though.

[rescueseven]

I would like to visit the factory sometime but I'm kind of limited by public transportation (i.e. RTD)...

BECK,
I wish you had posted this on Friday, I would have picked you up on the way out to SFO on Saterday . I spent a couple of three hours there flipping Lynette's BaliYo and doing other knife shopping. If you're going to be in town for a while let me know what part of town your in and I'll grab you on the next trip.

Remember: RTD stands for 'Reason To Drive' :D

Ian

[araneae]

The S has a limited amount of sharpenable steel before you get into the cutouts. Long term usability would not be a strong point for this model. I have handled one and it's extremely lightweight & kinda cool. As Yab said, it would make a nice letter opener.

Look into a Dragonfly. The VG-10 white one's are out. I can't wait for mine to come! :D

[diaBECKtic]

Wonder how up to date this site is...? Another thing you might try is your state legislature's web site, should list all the statutes in your state and would most likely be the most up-to-date, according to an attorney of my acquaintance...you could start with the criminal code, but there may be relevant laws scattered within other sections as well...

Agent Starling

Thanks. I suppose a cynic (such as myself) might say that you'll never have to concern yourself with the length of a knife if you're not doing anything that would warrant you needing to see it. I suppose that's beside the point but I appreciate everyone's insight. I'll have to check out some more of the updated laws, but I guess I'm still going to look for a knife that will be within that '3" or less' size.

[dalefuller]

To the OP's original question, IIRC, A G Russell publishes an guide to US knife laws that is updated each year. It's on his web site and in his catalogs.

[diaBECKtic]

To the OP's original question, IIRC, A G Russell publishes an guide to US knife laws that is updated each year. It's on his web site and in his catalogs.

Giddy-up. Thanks - I'll have to check that out.

I suppose this thread is still open for suggestions, reviews, etc. of knives that would (roughly) fit this criteria. If I further open this up to non-Spyderco knives, do I have to move forums? I would wager no, since this thread has an initial focus on Spyderco knives.

[The Deacon]

Well, among Spyderco's current offerings, the Dragonfly, Cricket, Lava, Kopa, and Kiwi are all well under 3" blades. The Delica, at 2 7/8" is another option and, at 2 15/16", the C105 Schempp 75mm Persian would give you just about the most blade possible without hitting the 3" mark.

There's also the option of getting something like the Caly 3 or Sage, both of which "toe the line" at exactly 3", and trimming, or having someone trim, a bit off the tip to bring it down to where you feel comfortable.

[diaBECKtic]

Well, among Spyderco's current offerings, the Dragonfly, Cricket, Lava, Kopa, and Kiwi are all well under 3" blades. The Delica, at 2 7/8" is another option and, at 2 15/16", the C105 Schempp 75mm Persian would give you just about the most blade possible without hitting the 3" mark.

There's also the option of getting something like the Caly 3 or Sage, both of which "toe the line" at exactly 3", and trimming, or having someone trim, a bit off the tip to bring it down to where you feel comfortable.

Hmmm. I really dig that Persian (and have for a while), but it's a bit out of my price range. I'm still in college, so we all know what that means :eek: .
I remember that I was considering an Endura at one point, but I decided to go with the Pacific Salt, which is for all intents and purposes a rust-proof Endura. I also think that the Lava is pretty cool and wierd-lookin' but it only comes with the stainless steel handle. Using the knives I have either in the kitchen or outdoors is one thing, but I run into trouble if I want to carry them for either EDC/utility or self-defense.

I suppose that being kind of a big guy would lead someone to say "oh you shouldn't need to carry a knife," but I tend to live by the "better safe than sorry"/"be prepared"/"better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it" axioms. I simply need to find a good compromise that won't get me into trouble if I happen to encounter any LEOs that don't have the damndest idea of the laws that they are to be enforcing. Again - prevention is the best cure, so I'd rather know these things beforehand.
:D

[diaBECKtic]

Oh yeah. I would also like to know if all of these legal definitions refer to the blade length or the cutting/functional length. What might seem like a minor interpretive issue would likely not be treated as such in a court of law.

Leave it to the #*(!ing politicians...