should spyderco outsource to China?

[Fred Sanford]

Yep.......quoting myself again. :D

... Things change and people have to adapt.

The only China made knife I have ever tried has been a Benchmade Vex. It was a pretty darn good knife (I hate to admit it). It was given to me by a friend and I did a review on it over at the Benchmade forum. I know that the quality of China made Spyderco will be as good, or better than, the Vex. I did like the steel on the Vex and I think it is the same steel that will be used on this Tenacious model.

I will buy one.

I also agree that to stay competitive that they will need to make one or two of knives somewhere other than the USA to be able to continue to compete in a global market. The Tenacious has shown that Spyderco is able to make a very low cost folder with very excellent quality. I think that it will become one of the most purchased low priced knives of all the quality knife manufacturers.

Lastly, most replies and other things are already in this thread that Sal started that he didn't even have to start. I appreciate the fact that a man that is the head of a company would even share this kind of stuff with is. Good guy.

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30951

[Slick]

I would have replied to this topic but everything has already been said. Since I actually am posting here I will 'fess up I didn't read the entire thread. Too many people re-re-re-arguing the same points and convincing no one who disagrees.

For me one large problem with Chinese imports is the artificially fixed exchange rate between the US dollar and the Chinese yuan. This is not free trade, it is manipulated trade. Free trade would benefit all parties.

That said I will not be buying Chinese Spyderco's. I try to buy US or Canada/Mexico when possible. Canada and Mexico are our largest market and Japan has a free market economy and floating exchange rate. I try and return the favor to them.

Bolstermanic, I like your convictions on this issue.

I wish everyone here would take a course in Macro-economics. Then we'd have an even better argument.

Edit: Has anyone heard of the "big mac" currency index? It is a joke but very useful. A Big Mac is surprisingly consistent product for most countries so the price of a Big Mac reflects the true exchange rate waaaaayyyy better than official exchange rates.

If the PRC/Red Chinese/Chi-coms <joke> really did float their currency there would be an immediate crisis throughout the world. You think inflation is bad now (USA)?

Note to self: Be careful what you wish for...

Edit: Edit: To Agent Starling: So your's is a Gibson? Mine is a Parker Fly because they are all... WHOOPS... Parker now makes guitars in Korea to meet the market demand for a cheaper guitar.

OK, I'll be quiet now.

[Agent Starling]

Edit: Edit: To Agent Starling: So your's is a Gibson? Mine is a Parker Fly because they are all... WHOOPS... Parker now makes guitars in Korea to meet the market demand for a cheaper guitar.

OK, I'll be quiet now.

Mine's quite old...Made in the USA!

Agent Starling

[guntotin_fool]

It all goes back to the issue of cost vs price. price is what an item is valued at the point of purchase.


Cost is the true value you get for the item over its life...

I can make the argument that a filson jacket has a lower cost than a cheap POS phat pharm puffy coat that lasts a few weeks. Why? because that 250 dollar jacket, will last your lifetime and your grandkids will be wearing it as a retro fad 50 years from now. So for five dollars a season. its pretty inexpensive. I wear Allen Edmund shoes. Why? because they end up costing me less to wear over time and good shoes are just so much more comfortable in the end. Sure they make you gulp when you spend 200 or more on a pair of shoes, But the shoes I got married in 26 years ago are still perfectly usable and I can wear them for 16 or 20 hours and not get sore feet.

I do not collect knives to sit in my drawer. I do not like the concept of safe queens. I buy them because I know I will not wear them out, they will give me service commensurate with the price they have, in the end, costing me far less than a "cheap knife"


It is the same with buying tools. I have never heard a person complain that they bought too good of a tool, however I have seen guys who have a few fingers missing from buying cheap tools. The 140 dollars I spent on my Worm drive skilsaw 25 years ago is pretty small, considering that same saw rides in my truck every day. Same with the Sawzall, 22 years old, new cord and new switch, but it still works as hard as the day it was bought.

[The Deacon]

...a Tenacious, or one of these stellar examples of American craftsmanship...
[CENTER]


[/CENTER]

...decisions, decisions. :rolleyes:

[Shike]

It all goes back to the issue of cost vs price. price is what an item is valued at the point of purchase.


Cost is the true value you get for the item over its life...

I can make the argument that a filson jacket has a lower cost than a cheap POS phat pharm puffy coat that lasts a few weeks. Why? because that 250 dollar jacket, will last your lifetime and your grandkids will be wearing it as a retro fad 50 years from now. So for five dollars a season. its pretty inexpensive. I wear Allen Edmund shoes. Why? because they end up costing me less to wear over time and good shoes are just so much more comfortable in the end. Sure they make you gulp when you spend 200 or more on a pair of shoes, But the shoes I got married in 26 years ago are still perfectly usable and I can wear them for 16 or 20 hours and not get sore feet.

I do not collect knives to sit in my drawer. I do not like the concept of safe queens. I buy them because I know I will not wear them out, they will give me service commensurate with the price they have, in the end, costing me far less than a "cheap knife"


It is the same with buying tools. I have never heard a person complain that they bought too good of a tool, however I have seen guys who have a few fingers missing from buying cheap tools. The 140 dollars I spent on my Worm drive skilsaw 25 years ago is pretty small, considering that same saw rides in my truck every day. Same with the Sawzall, 22 years old, new cord and new switch, but it still works as hard as the day it was bought.

:) Exzzzzzzzzzzzactly!

[ozspyder]

ROFL Paul .... BRK Native, surely one of the best

Good point though, and a stellar example of how things can (and will) go wrong no matter how much planning goes into something. That Murphy and his Law !!!

Good things and bad things come out of everyone/ everywhere/ everything. Just have to either choose the good out of the bad (fine example to follow when dealing with humans !)....or take the good AND the bad.

[clovisc]

HA -- GOOD one, paul!!! :D :D

[Killdozer]

Yes it should.

Spyderco's are made in other countries, why not China? Because it is communist? It's not the cold war anymore and besides wasn't it capitalism that brought down the USSR anyways? The ignore them and leave them alone track hasn't stopped Cuba. Capitalism will take down all walls!

To me at least China is just like any other country and if they can make knives to the Spyderco standard than let'em. Besides I don't mind cheap more less expensive Spydies. What I wouldn't do for a $25 Cricket...

-Mat

[mule skinner]

edited by MS

[Grey Mullet]

BMW announced it is investing $750 million to increase production in South Carolina. They are cutting jobs in Germany and moving them to the US. The lower value of the dollar makes the US a more attractive place to make things.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7287640.stm

[Hookpunch]

I guess there is a BMW forum somewhere where the posters are enraged that BMW will compromise its quality by building in the US.

[Grey Mullet]

I guess there is a BMW forum somewhere where the posters are enraged that BMW will compromise its quality by building in the US.

How do you say "stealing our jobs with cheap labor" in German?
:)

[The Mastiff]

How do you say "stealing our jobs with cheap labor" in German?

Hey, the U.S. is the largest market in the world for BMW's last I heard so by all rights they are now our Beamers.

We're even going to get an EADS plant too. Imagine Airbusses being produced here :D .

Our next plan in world conquest. Moving most German breweries here! The good ones anyway. Joe

[diver15]

for the love of god don't outsource to china, spyderco knives are one of the few things still made in America

[Fred Sanford]

for the love of god don't outsource to china, spyderco knives are one of the few things still made in America

Where have you been? Spyderco has been making knives in Japan, Taiwan, Italy, USA, and probably a couple other places that I forgot. :)

[igrowbamboo]

I just finished reading all seven pages of this thread and not much i can
say that hasn't already been said.
I can understand both sides of this argument, it's disappointing
to see the events unfold as they did but i don't fault anyone.
there's just something very special about looking at my trusty friend
and seeing these words.....

Golden,Colorado U.S.A. Earth

[Wharnie]

I mostly lurk, but after reading the entire thread, I have to add my bit. I examined the Tenacious, and while it’s an attractive design, I didn’t think it was up to the level of other Spydercos I own, so I passed. Also not a fan of 8Cr13Mov. My opinion? The Chinese have a ways to go before they catch up with the rest of the world in terms of steel quality.

I was surprised to see this thread taking a decidedly anti-American turn. (One post--if I’m reading it correctly—is anti-capitalism/pro-communism?) It’s starting to get political, just like Taz warned against. Let’s remember that Spyderco is a quality American company, that Sal earns his living as a successful capitalist, and as Datan previously posted, “you should not spit in your guest's face.”

I think it’s bogus to use the Spyderco/Camillus/BRK knife as the comparison point between Spyderco’s US vs. Chinese manufacturing quality, and as a vehicle by which to disparage US craftsmanship in general. Use a typical US (or Japanese) Spyderco for the comparison point, and that argument falls apart like powder.

And the BMW example. Several months ago I was doing research to buy a new car, and noticed that US cars had moved, on average, from third place to second place in terms of reliability, still behind the Japanese. German cars moved from second place to third. So you could argue that US-made BMWs would represent a higher quality vehicle.

I would appreciate it if the pro-China posters would stick to the topic of knives, rather than take this thread as an opportunity to bash the USA. Of course you can find inferior American products. (Often the companies that make them, go out of business.) But unless you pick and choose your examples very carefully, the argument “Stuff made in America is junk, all the good stuff is made in China” is really hard to support.

I’m a firm supporter of Spyderco’s quality knives, and I hope they continue producing top quality.

[Hookpunch]

And the BMW example. Several months ago I was doing research to buy a new car, and noticed that US cars had moved, on average, from third place to second place in terms of reliability, still behind the Japanese. German cars moved from second place to third. So you could argue that US-made BMWs would represent a higher quality vehicle.

I was being facetious about the BMW thing. I was really trying to point out that most high end manufacturers will outsource (or move some production) if it is good for their bottom line.

I wouldn't doubt thought that US cars have better reliability, I find most foreign performance cars tend to spend quite a bit of time being serviced.

[Derkomai]

Well, Agent Starling, SoCal Operator, Hookpunch, Michael Bolton, Telemeister, Grey Mullet, Rifle, The Deacon, Yablanowitz, Araneae, Michael Cook, Datan, Clovisc, Dialex, Dr. Snubnose, Korbiaka, Percival, Tank, Jay Ev, Catamount, Jaislandboy and Killdozer, you have have said it all, and probably better then this Dutch boy can.

Still I would like to say that I fully understand why :spyder: is taking the steps they are taking right now (thanks for explaining it all on de Dutch Mini-Meet Sal and thank you for a wunderfull day).

There is no doubt in my mind that :spyder: will be making high quality knives for a long time, no matter where they are made (USA, Japan, Taiwan, Italy or China). That should be the most important for us all: the best :spyder: for your $, €, ₤, or ¥. :cool: