Advice needed: Terzuola situation

[SpyRC]

OK, now I'm really pi$$ed off again. :mad:

I just had a chat with my friend as to how we were going to work out the knife situation, and I tried to point him to the ~$240 eBay result as an indicator of value. He wanted to pay me $150 for the knife, and it was "on his list" to do sometime when he has money. He argued that I only paid $150 for the knife (actually I paid $125), so why should he pay more?

I explained the concept of market value, that this knife's condition and rarity made it worth more than I paid for it. He argued that if you do $10K in mods to your car and then wreck it, the insurance company won't pay you for the mods, which is not only not true depending on the company, but also irrelevant. I explained if he had taken a stock certificate that I'd paid $10 for but was now worth $200, then he'd taken $200 and the $10 cost was irrelevant.

His reaction to the eBay result was "I'm not going to pay you what one nutbag was willing to pay, send me 10 links and we'll average them," which is impossible because there just aren't that many, and I said as much.

But what irritated me the most was his argumentative attitude, which demonstrates to me little to no remorse, and little to no understanding of just how wrong his actions were. His focus on price indicates to me he somehow thinks money is the core of the situation, which of course it isn't.

So I find myself almost as irritated as when this first happened, and now I'm really glad I didn't give him the knife, because he needs to learn a whole bunch of lessons over this incident. (and maybe so do I...)

I just composed an email which basically says (in a polite explanatory roundabout way) "Understand your errors, take responsibility, and pay up, or we're done."

Rob

[flipe8]

My take would be to take the knife back and sell it to someone else. Your "friend" sounds like a prick and regardless of how you decide to go in the future as far as the friendship issue is concerned, I'd not reward him by either giving it to him nor selling it to him. Being a thief is among the worst things and I certainly wouldn't get into discussions about selling it to him.
Just my opinion, but man, what a thing to do to a bud :mad: !

[markg]

Sounds like this whole issue has pretty much ruined the friendship at this point. I would take the $150 and call it a day.

However at this point, I am not really sure he will pay up.

Looks like a good case for Judge Judy! :D

[SpyRC]

Sounds like this whole issue has pretty much ruined the friendship at this point. I would take the $150 and call it a day.

However at this point, I am not really sure he will pay up.

Looks like a good case for Judge Judy! :D

LOL! Yeah, I think Judge Judy would have a field day with this one. She'd nail him about his actions and she'd nail me on actual value. He'd end up calling her a b1tch and getting thrown off the show...

I can't take the $150 and call it a day because at this point I'm not willing to give him the knife for that price, and I doubt he's going to pay me without getting it. And I also foresee months of me bugging him about the money, and it coming in small drips, a constant reminder of this ugly situation. I'll see how he responds to the email to figure out whether he's going to repent or whether it's over.

But while snooping around eBay, I did find this, which suddenly made me have "new virgin Bob T knife to replace ruined Bob T virgin knife" thoughts...

http://cgi.ebay.com/SPYDERCO-STARMATE-C ... dZViewItem

I like the design better than the C15 I have. Thoughts on this knife?

[GarageBoy]

WOW...that Starmate sure has climbed in price. Used to be 1/2 price of the aluminum ones

[ghostrider]

He betrayed your trust; he violated your right to privacy and private property by stealing from you. Then, he used excuses to belittle the graveness of the actions. He still doesn’t even think that it is stealing, or even wrong :eek: :mad: ! It sounds like he has a moral compass that is somewhat askew. His only remorse seems to be at the thought of loosing you as a friend.

He should replace the knife, and if that means paying $250 then so be it.

Here’s another idea:

Figure that the knife has been used some (opening letters does dull factory edge over time) and probably had some wear marks from the drawer. What do you think the knife was worth before he took it? It’s probably more than $150, but less than $250 (just guessing). Set a price and charge him that.

That said, I’ve heard that small children will sometimes “take” things much to the embarrassment of the parents however, he is beyond his teen years and should know better. I would probably not let someone in my house after they stole from me since I feel no need to get burned twice.

[SpyRC]

He betrayed your trust; he violated your right to privacy and private property by stealing from you. Then, he used excuses to belittle the graveness of the actions. He still doesn’t even think that it is stealing, or even wrong :eek: :mad: ! It sounds like he has a moral compass that is somewhat askew. His only remorse seems to be at the thought of loosing you as a friend.

He should replace the knife, and if that means paying $250 then so be it.

Your first paragraph is exactly right. I realize now that the remorse he first showed was not about his actions but at the prospect of losing a friendship that he considers important.

In this recent conversation, he made light of the damage to the knife, calling it a "couple of minor wear marks, not even a real scratch", which is highly debatable. The pix I originally posted do not clearly show the (I just counted) SEVENTY-THREE separate and distinguishable marks where you can see the aluminum thru the black finish, 3 of which I would call major. 2 of the 3 look like the knife has been dropped (dented aluminum) and the one scratch along the edge is about 1/2".

[Th232]

I would say several rather strong words, but this is Sal's house, so I will refrain.

Regardless, I'd say drop the friendship, he isn't one!

[Fred Sanford]

SpyRC,

Do you have the knife in your posession?

Either he pays you $150-$200 for the knife or he pays you $150-$200 for the knife.

I would really press the issue with him, because there is no friendship left there. Don't let him back in your house ever. Let him know you will contact his employer about this so that they keep an eye on him because he likes to steal things. File a police report and go from there.

If it were me it would no longer be about the knife money, I would spend $1500 if needed in lawyer/court to get $250 out of his butt and make a point.

[SpyRC]

SpyRC,

Do you have the knife in your posession?

Either he pays you $150-$200 for the knife or he pays you $150-$200 for the knife.

I would really press the issue with him, because there is no friendship left there. Don't let him back in your house ever. Let him know you will contact his employer about this so that they keep an eye on him because he likes to steal things. File a police report and go from there.

If it were me it would no longer be about the knife money, I would spend $1500 if needed in lawyer/court to get $250 out of his butt and make a point.

Yes, I do have the knife, and his making good on its value is a small start to fixing this situation, if that's even possible, which I think it is. (I'm forever the optimist/patsy, take your pick...) The value is debatable here amongst us reasonable people, but I don't think he's in any position to do the same, hence my chagrin over $90.

As for taking him to court, I thought about that for a bit, but ultimately decided it'd be throwing good money after bad, and the point would be made just as easily by dropping the friendship, which would be a shame because I would lose something as well.

Here's the last part of my email to him:

You really need to do a few things to make this situation right:

1. Accept responsibility for your actions. Your argumentative attitude is not demonstrating any remorse, and is counter to me believing you understand what you did wrong.

2. Understand that what you did was very very wrong. I do not think you quite grasp this yet, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing with me. For reasons unknown to me, you seem to feel this is some kind of debate.

3. Compensate me for the value of the knife in the condition it was in before you "borrowed" it, which seems to be slightly over $240 according to this latest eBay auction.

It is only after these things are done that we can start working on the issue of rebuilding trust. This is just the way life works, and you need to think about this situation very carefully. This is not about money.

So either this is going to be a $150 lesson for me, or a $240 lesson for you, and it's your choice.

That said, what about the Starmate to replace my knife....

Half the reason the C15 spent all its long but eventful-towards-the-end life in my drawer was because of the finish, which I realized right away would look like crap if I carried it everyday, which is partially why I chose to carry the Harpy. The G10 handle presumably would not mar like black painted/anodized aluminum.

Rob

[Raqudu]

Here's the last part of my email to him:

You really need to do a few things to make this situation right:

1. Accept responsibility for your actions. Your argumentative attitude is not demonstrating any remorse, and is counter to me believing you understand what you did wrong.

2. Understand that what you did was very very wrong. I do not think you quite grasp this yet, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing with me. For reasons unknown to me, you seem to feel this is some kind of debate.

3. Compensate me for the value of the knife in the condition it was in before you "borrowed" it, which seems to be slightly over $240 according to this latest eBay auction.

It is only after these things are done that we can start working on the issue of rebuilding trust. This is just the way life works, and you need to think about this situation very carefully. This is not about money.


Rob

Rob, it sounds like you're doing your best to handle a very difficult situation. I hope your effort to convince your friend that just paying you back will not repair the damage to the relationship, but only bring you to a point that the rebuilding can begin, is successful. Like the old story of the nails in the fencepost, you can pull out the nails, but the holes remain.

[rolyat1978]

I guess the answer lies in how much you value the friendship. I would gift him the knife, build a stronger bond. I hope you value a good friendship at more than $200. I think he already knows he screwed up big-time.

[The Mastiff]

I guess the answer lies in how much you value the friendship. I would gift him the knife, build a stronger bond. I hope you value a good friendship at more than $200. I think he already knows he screwed up big-time.

This guy is totally unworthy of a friendship and should not even be allowed in the house. There are too many people willing to make excuses, or forgive here which does nothing but reaffirms this guys policy of stealing from friends, a pretty low thing IMO. He should be taught the action/consequence sequence we adults all know about. This is not an admiring 10 year old nephew, but an adult who pretended to be a friend, and took advantage of a person that believed in the friendship.

I suggest breaking a finger a week on his hand untill he pays, with interest ( unless of course that's illegal in your jurisdiction. I'd never advocate breaking any laws :) )Joe

[SpyRC]

OK, so it's a few months later and the situation is now pretty much settled. I did not give my friend the knife for his birthday because just as I was about to, his combative demeanor over the stolen knife demanded that he feel the pain of restitution.

So he has now paid me $220 out of the $240 I requested, the price from the eBay listing. He paid me in two installments, the first $40 and the last $180, which he swore up and down was $200 but apparently he miscounted when he left the envelope. Either that or he was lying thru his teeth, but as he has become a little scatter-brained recently as to misplacing things, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Still, if he was lying and trying to get the final upperhand, I'd have to remain suspicious. He says he'll pay me the extra $20 soon, but I don't really need it.

The knife wasn't worth $240 anyway, so I'm fine with $220, but it was definitely difficult to get. It's a start to repair the damage, and knowing that ultimately he did make good on the situation is promising. There's hope for him yet... ;-)

The problem with this kind of thing is the suspicion it breeds. Just last night a friend of his stayed over, and in the morning they discovered the friend's vintage Porsche 911 had been stolen. My first thought was "You probably waited until he was asleep and stole it yourself..." The situation will only be over when I stop having reactions like this.

Thanks again to anybody who chimed in to help me with this difficult situation with my friend.

Rob

[clovisc]

just saw this thread for the first time... maybe i'm too cynical, but i'm amazed that:

1) you were so patient!

2) he actually coughed up a substantial amount of dough!

in situations like this, i'd typically do what i call "the new york city" -- just completely forget about everything -- including the friendship -- and move on. life's too short to waste time on something this negative and crappy.

[SpyRC]

just saw this thread for the first time... maybe i'm too cynical, but i'm amazed that:

1) you were so patient!

2) he actually coughed up a substantial amount of dough!

in situations like this, i'd typically do what i call "the new york city" -- just completely forget about everything -- including the friendship -- and move on. life's too short to waste time on something this negative and crappy.

Well, fortunately for him and me, I'm on the West Coast, so I did the"San Francisco". You're right, life is too short for this crap, but if it ultimately turns out for the better, then maybe, just maybe, life isn't too short for this crap. It's worth a shot. :)

Rob

[mrappraisit]

I think that the two of you should agree on an BNIB value, then I think that you could easily sell it on bladeforums or on e-bay, and make him pay you the difference between what you get at market price and the aggreed upon "value"
BTW I also consider what he did theft. You cant just "borrow" a neighbors car when they are on vacation and not using it right?
Good luck with this sticky situation.
Shawn

[mrappraisit]

Didnt realize this was basically settled. I guess I need more coffee :D

[clovisc]

Well, fortunately for him and me, I'm on the West Coast, so I did the"San Francisco". You're right, life is too short for this crap, but if it ultimately turns out for the better, then maybe, just maybe, life isn't too short for this crap. It's worth a shot. :)

Rob

"san francisco" -- heh, heh!

well, i truly hope that it works out for the best. your patience with the situation is definitely inspirational, and i appreciate you sharing the story with us... :D :spyder:

[Will V.]

I think I'm a very good friend, and I'm a very understanding person. I guess I give so many things freely to my friends, I feel I would have very little tolerance for this behavior. This guy seems to have no respect for other people's property.

And a vintage Porsche 911? I certainly hope this friend of yours had nothing to do with that theft.