Off-Topic:Glock vs Beretta
Off-Topic:Glock vs Beretta
I'm srtongly considering going to a hi-cap 9mm as my primary carry gun(yes I'm legal) & have narrowed it down the the Glock 19 or one of the Beretta 92 variants.I've shot both & shoot both equally well.I like the ligher weight of the Glock but factory mags are like hen's teeth.I like the manual safety of the Baretta(in case of a disarm),mags are somewhat easier to find(just cost an arm & a leg!)but the weight kinda puts me off.I've friends who carry both & each swears his the only way to go(I kinda feel that way about my Bodyguard:I just want more ammo).?Opinions?
Hey Earthworm,
I'm on the Glock side of the fence. I like the weight & easy clearing. I took the Glock armory class, so I know how to take one, all the down to it 36 pieces. It can be done very fast. If your getting pre-band mags make should you get the drop free ones. The early hi-caps won't drop out(by design). Think of going with the Glock 22, the hi-cap 40cal mags might be easier to find. I think 40cal is a better round. And to bring this back to MBC <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> What knife are you carrying as a back up?
Gavin
PS Happy New Year to all
...from whose bourn, no traveler returns.
Edited by - Mr.Skin on 12/31/2001 1:12:52 PM
I'm on the Glock side of the fence. I like the weight & easy clearing. I took the Glock armory class, so I know how to take one, all the down to it 36 pieces. It can be done very fast. If your getting pre-band mags make should you get the drop free ones. The early hi-caps won't drop out(by design). Think of going with the Glock 22, the hi-cap 40cal mags might be easier to find. I think 40cal is a better round. And to bring this back to MBC <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> What knife are you carrying as a back up?
Gavin
PS Happy New Year to all
...from whose bourn, no traveler returns.
Edited by - Mr.Skin on 12/31/2001 1:12:52 PM
I can get a Heritage Arms Stealth .40 for $200.10 rd mags,trigger much like a Glock,frame-mounted safety,compact & light.My bitchs with it are no hi-caps & it's not a common gun(this latter might be an advantage).OTOH it IS a .40,would double available rounds & have that fast reload.Hummmm...I might have just talked myself into it.Apprecieate your thought Gavin:Happy New Year.Oh:EDC knife is a Delica;a Merlin @ times.
I would go with the Glock. I have carried both guns for years and to me the Glock seems better suited for use under stress. The Beretta is a fine gun and you will not find one made better. The block design of the Glock is easier to manipulate under stress and under less than perfect condition, wet or bloody hands, etc. Either gun will do just fine if you train with it. Just one mans opinion.
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YoungCutter
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Glocks.
Lighter Weight,
Thinner,
Cheaper,
More Accurate,
Much More Capable of Taking Abuse,
Rust Proof,
More Reliable
and higher capacity for their size (e.g. 15rds for your G19, and it's smaller than your 15rd Beretta 92)
I went through this a while back - because for all it's faults Berettas do have a coolness factor, but when I added it all up, Glock one by a ton.
Hope this helps
I lubba da Spydies :)
Lighter Weight,
Thinner,
Cheaper,
More Accurate,
Much More Capable of Taking Abuse,
Rust Proof,
More Reliable
and higher capacity for their size (e.g. 15rds for your G19, and it's smaller than your 15rd Beretta 92)
I went through this a while back - because for all it's faults Berettas do have a coolness factor, but when I added it all up, Glock one by a ton.
Hope this helps
I lubba da Spydies :)
In my experience the Berettas are just as reliable as the Glock, and are less prone to "limp wristing".
I have also had three Berettas break on the firing line during competition. (High volume guns, but it still shouldn't happen)
The "Elite" berettas are pretty sweet, but I still have a tough time going against the Glock.
Steve
I have also had three Berettas break on the firing line during competition. (High volume guns, but it still shouldn't happen)
The "Elite" berettas are pretty sweet, but I still have a tough time going against the Glock.
Steve
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Hoosierdaddy
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I just recently bought a Beretta 96FS Centurian, and it's an awesome weapon! I think you should go 40 S.&W., 9mm is a little weak for starters. 40 has a 94% to 96% one stop shot capability on the Fuller Index, versus 90% to 92% for the 9mm, some people think that's not important, I disagree!! I would not waste my money on a 9mm gun PERIOD. It is a weak caliber! My 40 shoots very well, and fits my hands great. I bought a Hogue monogrip and the fit is tremendous! I have not handled many Glocks and don't feel confident on commenting on them. I have owned a 9mm 92FS and sold it when the 40 came out, the Beretta is quite accurate and would not let you down. Take down and cleaning is very simple. Beretta has been making firearms for well over 400 years, I think they will be around for a bit longer. Glocks aren't bad, it's just Berettas are better!
I repeat, don't waste you're money on a 9mm get a REAL caliber.
BTW... For EDC I would choose my Python over a pistol, for the fact that they don't "experience" cycling failures like semi-auto pistols do! It doesn't matter how many rounds you have if the first one jams and you're in a life and death matter you're DONE! Also the Python is chambered for 357 Magnum, THE best handgun caliber known to man.
96% on the Fuller Index!!! (125 grain JHP)
My two cents!!!
I repeat, don't waste you're money on a 9mm get a REAL caliber.
BTW... For EDC I would choose my Python over a pistol, for the fact that they don't "experience" cycling failures like semi-auto pistols do! It doesn't matter how many rounds you have if the first one jams and you're in a life and death matter you're DONE! Also the Python is chambered for 357 Magnum, THE best handgun caliber known to man.
96% on the Fuller Index!!! (125 grain JHP)
My two cents!!!
earthworm,
I picked up on your Bodyguard as being your favorite piece. There are reasons why this J frame is your EDC.
Is it size? Weight? Confidense instilling?
Important questions; because your options of G-19 or '92 varients are very different from your fave.
Many concealled EDC handgun bearers have an ideal gun in mind, but after four seasons of toting, reality creeps back to the smaller, lighter guns.
Mind you in my area, the hot summers can be brutal, perhaps your seasons are mild. So conceal comfort equates to actually going out the door with the handgun. And, since the frist rule of a gunfight is... to have a gun; comfort means consistant EDC.
I'm certain some folk have success packing a large frame '92 in concealment; however, I believe they have to adapt their daily wear and habits more so than small/light gun wearers.
Between your two choices, I'd go with the G-19.
One question I have regards the trigger of your two options; they're very different. Have you had much real firing time on the Glock? If so, Do you have confidense to hit well and handle safely?
Often, when speaking of quality semi-autos, it's not some much the make and model, as it's the very specfics needs and ability of the shooter.
The quality handgun that provides confidense in use and carry, with the comfort level for four season concealed EDC, will be different for every user.
As to caliber and number of rounds -- minor issues when compared to timely consistent frist round hits. Whatever handgun can provide a quick, safe, reliable, draw-stroke to-frist-round critical target penetrating hit is the right handgun to have when you need it to do just that.
Good Luck,
Seth
I picked up on your Bodyguard as being your favorite piece. There are reasons why this J frame is your EDC.
Is it size? Weight? Confidense instilling?
Important questions; because your options of G-19 or '92 varients are very different from your fave.
Many concealled EDC handgun bearers have an ideal gun in mind, but after four seasons of toting, reality creeps back to the smaller, lighter guns.
Mind you in my area, the hot summers can be brutal, perhaps your seasons are mild. So conceal comfort equates to actually going out the door with the handgun. And, since the frist rule of a gunfight is... to have a gun; comfort means consistant EDC.
I'm certain some folk have success packing a large frame '92 in concealment; however, I believe they have to adapt their daily wear and habits more so than small/light gun wearers.
Between your two choices, I'd go with the G-19.
One question I have regards the trigger of your two options; they're very different. Have you had much real firing time on the Glock? If so, Do you have confidense to hit well and handle safely?
Often, when speaking of quality semi-autos, it's not some much the make and model, as it's the very specfics needs and ability of the shooter.
The quality handgun that provides confidense in use and carry, with the comfort level for four season concealed EDC, will be different for every user.
As to caliber and number of rounds -- minor issues when compared to timely consistent frist round hits. Whatever handgun can provide a quick, safe, reliable, draw-stroke to-frist-round critical target penetrating hit is the right handgun to have when you need it to do just that.
Good Luck,
Seth
Hoosierdaddy:The selling point of the 9 is the availabilty of h-cap mags & my knowledge of the recoil & accuracy.My ex had a Beretta Brigader & shot consistant 15 rd. 4" groups @ 10 yards.I agree the numbers favor the .40.Interesting to note that 2 survivors of the FBI Miami massacre went 2 different ways:one to .40 for power;the other to 9mm for hi-cap.I've advocated the mid-frame.357 for years(L-frame S&W,Ruger SP's,even the Taurus)as the best all-around handgun.I can get one of the new S&W.357 Scandium 7-shooters for about $600 & it DO invade my thoughts.(2"L-frame that weighs less empty than my Airweight Bodyguard.?Think a full-house.357'd bite @ both ends?*G*)
Seth:Excellnt Points!& why I've been playing with this decision for a number of years:usually when I get the hots for an auto I go to the range,pull my Bodyguard from my pocket & put 5 rounds into a standard size paper plate @ 7 yards.Then I stick that J-frame back into my pocket & think"What would I gain?".Here in middle Tennessee the summers hit the 90's & that little Smith hides VERY well.OTOH fanny packs are very popular & almost"invisible" which allows me to pack a more potent piece.I chose my Airweight Bodyguard originally for it's size,weight,caliber & shrouded hammer.My reasons for even considering the upgrade are a rise in home invasions & multiple-assailant muggings & carjackings causing me to wonder if 5 rounds of .38 are enough.I agree:first-shot placement is the key.I've shot botautos & revolvers for over 20 years & am competent with both.I just don't like to carry cocked'n'locked(yes I know) or I'd go with an aluminum-frame Commander.45.I agree:that Beretta is a hoss to pack.The Heritage Stealth.40 I mention earlier seems like the best compromise & one HUGE advantage is I can buy it without having to sell my Smith.The Stealth feels good in the hand,is compact,10rds.of.40,,,I just haven't shot one or heard how they hold up(the gun rags give them a thumbs-up,but the only gun rag that I've seen pan any gun was Phil Engledrum's"Handgun Tests"[not the one on the market now]& 'American Refleman's test of the Remington Viper.22).I can't afford a Para Ordance(sp).45(Boy that LDA trigger is sweet!).
Lots to consider on this issue.You'd think that I,who've taught firearms safety & self-defense courses would know better.WEll,times & situations change & I've never been too proud to say"I wuz wrong" or ask for help & advise.Thanks for all input.Please don't close the thread:things are just getting interesting*G*!
Seth:Excellnt Points!& why I've been playing with this decision for a number of years:usually when I get the hots for an auto I go to the range,pull my Bodyguard from my pocket & put 5 rounds into a standard size paper plate @ 7 yards.Then I stick that J-frame back into my pocket & think"What would I gain?".Here in middle Tennessee the summers hit the 90's & that little Smith hides VERY well.OTOH fanny packs are very popular & almost"invisible" which allows me to pack a more potent piece.I chose my Airweight Bodyguard originally for it's size,weight,caliber & shrouded hammer.My reasons for even considering the upgrade are a rise in home invasions & multiple-assailant muggings & carjackings causing me to wonder if 5 rounds of .38 are enough.I agree:first-shot placement is the key.I've shot botautos & revolvers for over 20 years & am competent with both.I just don't like to carry cocked'n'locked(yes I know) or I'd go with an aluminum-frame Commander.45.I agree:that Beretta is a hoss to pack.The Heritage Stealth.40 I mention earlier seems like the best compromise & one HUGE advantage is I can buy it without having to sell my Smith.The Stealth feels good in the hand,is compact,10rds.of.40,,,I just haven't shot one or heard how they hold up(the gun rags give them a thumbs-up,but the only gun rag that I've seen pan any gun was Phil Engledrum's"Handgun Tests"[not the one on the market now]& 'American Refleman's test of the Remington Viper.22).I can't afford a Para Ordance(sp).45(Boy that LDA trigger is sweet!).
Lots to consider on this issue.You'd think that I,who've taught firearms safety & self-defense courses would know better.WEll,times & situations change & I've never been too proud to say"I wuz wrong" or ask for help & advise.Thanks for all input.Please don't close the thread:things are just getting interesting*G*!
Somthing else you mat want to consider is the ability of the Beretta frame and slide to handle to abuse of the .40 s&w round. I did some research a couple of years ago and found that a number of police departments were having catostrophic slide and frame failures with Beretta .40 pistols. Ohio State Police, York Provincial Police (Canada) and another PD in western Canada, I dont recall where. The guns were failing anywhere from 3000-10000 rounds. I have personally seen Beretta .40 pistols with huge gouges in the rails causing the slide to stick. I think some of the polymer framed pistols will fair a little better due to frame flex.
Somthing else you mat want to consider is the ability of the Beretta frame and slide to handle to abuse of the .40 s&w round. I did some research a couple of years ago and found that a number of police departments were having catostrophic slide and frame failures with Beretta .40 pistols. Ohio State Police, York Provincial Police (Canada) and another PD in western Canada, I dont recall where. The guns were failing anywhere from 3000-10000 rounds. I have personally seen Beretta .40 pistols with huge gouges in the rails causing the slide to stick. I think some of the polymer framed pistols will fair a little better due to frame flex.
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Hoosierdaddy
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Earthworm,
I haven't heard much about the Stealth model for 200.00 you talk about, but remember you get what you pay for! How much is your life and loved ones lives worth? Most quality guns are five to six hundred new. You sound proficeint enough with your revolvers. How many assailents are you expecting? What scenarios you might encounter can be a major factor in determining the final decision! For home defense get a good Shotgun! That will stop most anyone and his friends, and eliminate taking out your neigbhors. I do think caliber is very important! I would rather have less rounds than a weak caliber. Having less rounds will make you train better. A hundred different scenarios could play out in many situations, you need to realize you may never be prepared for every situation!
As highly as I praise Berettas, they did have some problems with the M9 (92F) in the area of slide failures. Enough so that the Navy seals went to the Sig 226 or 228 some years ago. Glock experienced a "non recall" on 500,000 pistols, so they too have had their problems. I don't think too highly of Smith & Wesson or ruger, mainly because they both sold out!!! The model 66 S&W had problems with the gas ring causing the cylinder to bind, they fixed that a while back. What I'm getting at is you can have failures with many different guns, hopefully you won't have a failure when you need it most! My Python is an early model (read better quality and materials) and I've put a **** of a lot of brass through it, it has never had a problem related to the gun itself! I don't think it will never fail me, but hope it won't at a critical time.
45s get rather large when you double stack them, they have a similar stopping power to 40 S&W. 45 mags are heavy with h/cap. I guess we could go back and forth all day.
In closing, don't be afraid to spend a little money on a good firearm. Your life may depend on it. Whatever you get shoot the **** out of it, get comfortable with it and learn to depend on it.
BTW... Don't always believe what the gun mags. write about, some are quite biased based on who's spending the most for advertising!
I hope I didn't open a can of worms for you, good luck and keep us posted.
I haven't heard much about the Stealth model for 200.00 you talk about, but remember you get what you pay for! How much is your life and loved ones lives worth? Most quality guns are five to six hundred new. You sound proficeint enough with your revolvers. How many assailents are you expecting? What scenarios you might encounter can be a major factor in determining the final decision! For home defense get a good Shotgun! That will stop most anyone and his friends, and eliminate taking out your neigbhors. I do think caliber is very important! I would rather have less rounds than a weak caliber. Having less rounds will make you train better. A hundred different scenarios could play out in many situations, you need to realize you may never be prepared for every situation!
As highly as I praise Berettas, they did have some problems with the M9 (92F) in the area of slide failures. Enough so that the Navy seals went to the Sig 226 or 228 some years ago. Glock experienced a "non recall" on 500,000 pistols, so they too have had their problems. I don't think too highly of Smith & Wesson or ruger, mainly because they both sold out!!! The model 66 S&W had problems with the gas ring causing the cylinder to bind, they fixed that a while back. What I'm getting at is you can have failures with many different guns, hopefully you won't have a failure when you need it most! My Python is an early model (read better quality and materials) and I've put a **** of a lot of brass through it, it has never had a problem related to the gun itself! I don't think it will never fail me, but hope it won't at a critical time.
45s get rather large when you double stack them, they have a similar stopping power to 40 S&W. 45 mags are heavy with h/cap. I guess we could go back and forth all day.
In closing, don't be afraid to spend a little money on a good firearm. Your life may depend on it. Whatever you get shoot the **** out of it, get comfortable with it and learn to depend on it.
BTW... Don't always believe what the gun mags. write about, some are quite biased based on who's spending the most for advertising!
I hope I didn't open a can of worms for you, good luck and keep us posted.
I would like to recommend that you move up to atleast the .40 caliber.
I was an observer when an individual tried to run someone down in his car while running a locked gate.
One of the security types responded by shooting at one of the tires on the car. I actually saw the tire dimple in as the bullet hit it, but the perpetrator got away (after crashing through the gate. The tire remained intact.
I talked to the security guy and found out that he was shooting a 9 mm (a S&W 59, the same gun as mine). This really bummed me out, and really left me cold on the minimal power of the 9 mm.
As a result, I promptly went out and bought a Glock .40 Caliber - model 23.
While the Glock is clearly not a target piece, I find it's fine for everyday carry. I also enjoy shooting the Glock.
As long as you keep your finger off the trigger, it's quite safe. Since there is a safety on the trigger, you had best have control of your finger once it's on the trigger.
I believe the Beretta is a better made piece with lots more options for customizing.
The main point of my response is to strongly suggest that you go to a higher caliber. I found that the .40 is better than the 9 mm, but not as hard on the ears and wrist as the .45 caliber.
One way or the other, you pay for your tools!
I was an observer when an individual tried to run someone down in his car while running a locked gate.
One of the security types responded by shooting at one of the tires on the car. I actually saw the tire dimple in as the bullet hit it, but the perpetrator got away (after crashing through the gate. The tire remained intact.
I talked to the security guy and found out that he was shooting a 9 mm (a S&W 59, the same gun as mine). This really bummed me out, and really left me cold on the minimal power of the 9 mm.
As a result, I promptly went out and bought a Glock .40 Caliber - model 23.
While the Glock is clearly not a target piece, I find it's fine for everyday carry. I also enjoy shooting the Glock.
As long as you keep your finger off the trigger, it's quite safe. Since there is a safety on the trigger, you had best have control of your finger once it's on the trigger.
I believe the Beretta is a better made piece with lots more options for customizing.
The main point of my response is to strongly suggest that you go to a higher caliber. I found that the .40 is better than the 9 mm, but not as hard on the ears and wrist as the .45 caliber.
One way or the other, you pay for your tools!
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Hoosierdaddy
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Gadfly,
I don't know if you're aware that the model 39&59 Smith had a real bad problem with "erratic quality control". Massad Ayoob writes "the basic design is sound, that many guns were excellent, and that a reliable example was a fine police sidearm". He goes on to say "many officers had been demoralized by several incidents in which the auto went off when dropped...and by jamming on the practice range." "Even with the bugs worked out, there were jamming problems...the only police gun that exceeds [the 39/59 models] record of rejection-after-adoption is the .41 Magnum."
The July/Aug 1978 Handgunner magazine has the whole story.
I know you shouldn't be "dropping" any gun period but you may want to look into this further. Find out before it's too late!
I also agree whole-heartedly on a bigger caliber than 9mm!
I don't know if you're aware that the model 39&59 Smith had a real bad problem with "erratic quality control". Massad Ayoob writes "the basic design is sound, that many guns were excellent, and that a reliable example was a fine police sidearm". He goes on to say "many officers had been demoralized by several incidents in which the auto went off when dropped...and by jamming on the practice range." "Even with the bugs worked out, there were jamming problems...the only police gun that exceeds [the 39/59 models] record of rejection-after-adoption is the .41 Magnum."
The July/Aug 1978 Handgunner magazine has the whole story.
I know you shouldn't be "dropping" any gun period but you may want to look into this further. Find out before it's too late!
I also agree whole-heartedly on a bigger caliber than 9mm!