Shun/Kershaw Damascened Knives of VG-10 Chipping

[Bolster]

Shun/Kershaw makes some high-end damascus-style kitchen knives that I've been eyeing for some time. The core is VG-10 surrounded by forge-welded SUS410, which I take to be a low carbon (but pretty!) cladding steel.

The local upscale kitchen store that carries them told me an interesting story about them. I guess they chip like crazy. So much so that Kershaw sent out a "mea culpa" team to the store, because Kershaw was getting so many returns of chipped knives.

The knife guy at the store showed me a box of chipped-up returns (and they weren't pretty, all of them were missing tips, and chunks missing along the edge). I was told Kershaw admitted to the store owner an error in the manufacture of the earlier knives, and said that the new batch would be much better. Knife guy at store says the new ones are just as bad, with loads of returns and unhappy customers.

So this is an interesting story of VG-10 apparently chipping like crazy. It appears to be hardened to Rc 60. I don't know what to make of it other than the importance of the heat treat. I also have questions about the grind angle, and of course, the way in which the ELU's are using them. So there are lots of ways to point the finger. But I had never heard of major problems with VG-10 chipping before.

Anybody know the Rc that Spyderco uses on their VG-10?

[KSDbass]

off the top of my head, I think it's 56-58 RC, but I wouldn't quote me on it. I've never heard of VG-10 chipping either, but I guess if you harden it to 60 RC, it will.

[uhiforgot]

Well, as an anniversary present this year, my girlfriend got me a Shun 6.5" santoku with the leftie handle :cool:

I have been using it quite frequently in the kitchen, and even lent it to a friend next door. He managed to put a few chips in the blade, but he was about half-way into a 12-pack and is used to (literally) horrible steel in his knives. In my hands, however, it has behaved beautifully.

By my experience thus far and without "formal" training, I will make no claim to mastery whatsoever, but when it comes to kitchen knives I'm no novice. The way the knives are handled makes a big difference, and most people who sous chef for me (even the good ones) are **** near impossible to teach; they're just thrilled to get to cut stuff with a kitchen knife. It's like they want to look as cool doing the stuff as what they saw on TV. IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

But that's what people do; they get too gung-ho and try to "look" professional. It's not always how you work the knife either. I can tell immediately if somebody knows what they're doing with a kitchen knife just by the way they pick it up. Let's not forget either that some people think that stainless steel, glass, ceramic plates, and granite counter tops are cutting board materials :mad: :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, there's no good resources available to teach someone how to work a knife, and I'm thinking of working out something to put on youtube that can at least get people using the basics and not destroying their knives.

Getting back to the original idea, Shuns are designed to be PROFESSIONAL kitchen knives, but I'd be willing to bet that most people don't treat them so. I'll be interested to see how the story unfolds, though.

[Bolster]

As you can see, these are beautiful knives we're discussing...the bolsters are relieved for professional handling, the design is Ken Onion, and there are 32 layers of cladding. This one sells for a little under $200 on Amazon.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I almost bought one for around $200 cause I like the Spyderco Santuko so much...glad I didn't.....Doc :D

[uhiforgot]

I almost bought one for around $200 cause I like the Spyderco Santuko so much...glad I didn't.....Doc :D

Well, Doc, don't look at this as a reason to skip out on them. They're still a kicka$$ knife, but I'm curious about the origins of this problem.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Well, Doc, don't look at this as a reason to skip out on them. They're still a kicka$$ knife, but I'm curious about the origins of this problem.

Well...I wasn't looking for any reasons to opt out of this one....I decided it weighed a ton and I do a lot of cooking and food prep in the kitchen...I'll stick with my Spyderco...I have used one for like way over 12 years now and put three or four of them away for future use....I have a really fine set of Sabaters (sp?) but I still use the Santoku for everything.....Doc :D

[*Cho*]

I have a few Shuns. The first one I got was the 8" chef (non graton). I also have the extra wide santoku because it is easier to use like a chinese cleaver (a la scooping), 6" utility with alton angle, and 3.5" paring.

I've never had any problems with chipping or tips. However I treat my knives with RESPECT. I know I pay a premium for my knives because I'm getting a quality blade (should sound familiar to anyone familar to spyderco), and as such I only treat it the way it is to be treated.

I also work in a knife store and we sell Shun. I have seen some with horrible chips and tips. But 95% of the time this is because the knives were used improperly or dropped.

I don't care which company a person ends up going with, but if you treat your knives like crap, they will look like crap. A little bit of misfortune never helps either, but even a spyderco dropped can suffer a broken tip and I've read more than enough threads to know that.

But I'll stand by Shun, they are some of the finest knives I've seen,handled and used.

[Thomas W]

Shun/Kershaw makes some high-end damascus-style kitchen knives that I've been eyeing for some time. The core is VG-10 surrounded by forge-welded SUS410, which I take to be a low carbon (but pretty!) cladding steel.

The local upscale kitchen store that carries them told me an interesting story about them. I guess they chip like crazy. So much so that Kershaw sent out a "mea culpa" team to the store, because Kershaw was getting so many returns of chipped knives.

The knife guy at the store showed me a box of chipped-up returns (and they weren't pretty, all of them were missing tips, and chunks missing along the edge). I was told Kershaw admitted to the store owner an error in the manufacture of the earlier knives, and said that the new batch would be much better. Knife guy at store says the new ones are just as bad, with loads of returns and unhappy customers.

So this is an interesting story of VG-10 apparently chipping like crazy. It appears to be hardened to Rc 60. I don't know what to make of it other than the importance of the heat treat. I also have questions about the grind angle, and of course, the way in which the ELU's are using them. So there are lots of ways to point the finger. But I had never heard of major problems with VG-10 chipping before.

BM, I just have to jump in here and say that "crazy story" is just that, crazy, and just not true. I pretty sure we would have heard about the issue if there was one.

There were/are no "errors" in manufacturing of the Shun line, and there is not a widespread problem with chipped edges and broken tips. Just the opposite has been true, the response has been incredible, and the brand has seen worldwide success due to its performance.

To add, we have teams that go out to different stores to educate employees on the details and spec's of the Shun line on a regular basis. This is normal, and I've never heard of a visit being done due to a widespread manufacturing epidemic.

Now I have seen blown out edges and broken tips on Shun's, but it wasn't due to faulty steel.

I know this is a Spydie forum, but let's keep the storytelling of the competition at least factual.

Sorry for the interuption, just had to keep it real.


Thomas
Kershaw Knives

[Bolster]

Thomas, thanks for the reply. May I respond:

I *like* Kershaw knives and own several. I went into that store seeking information, as I was contemplating a Shun purchase. (Heck, I still may purchase one; the feedback here has been good, and after reading the replies, I'm more inclined to suspect ELU's than defects.) At the time, the store owner talked me out of a Shun, and showed me evidence (a box of chipped Shun knives waiting for return, which he indicated was yet another batch of returns).

The reason I relayed the story was to generate discussion about chipping of a steel that's widely found in Spyders. We encounter S30V chipping stories all the time; here was a story about VG-10 chipping, from a reputable company (Kershaw), and as such, this would be of interest to Spyderheads as well, as it is sort of "our steel" since many of us swear by it.

I clearly indicated I was relaying a story I was told, and offered alternate explanations to what the store told me, including misuse by ELUs. If the story had been about Spyderco, I would have done the same; posts on this forum are often critical of Spyderco--we aren't censored in that respect; we are free to laud or criticize as we see fit, and we do. That's the nature of forums and blogs...the manufacturer relinquishes some of their message control to the ELUs. We frequently pass along stories we hear or experience of knife performance. This is not a scientific forum with peer review, so setting the bar at "factual" is a bit high. There's a great deal of opinion here, and that's understood.

But I'm at a loss as to why one of your retailers would tell me this story if it's entirely untrue, a "crazy story." What does he gain by talking me out of an expensive knife I'm interested in? According to him, because he didn't want to deal with the high likelihood I'd return it after it chipped.

I appreciate everything about your post -- except the last line. Nobody here is out to "get" Kershaw, least of all me, as I genuinely like the brand. In my experience, Kershaw is well-regarded on this forum.

Nevertheless, I offer my apologies, as my post was intended to generate discussion about VG-10 rather than discussion of Kershaw.

[uhiforgot]

BM, I just have to jump in here and say that "crazy story" is just that, crazy, and just not true. I pretty sure we would have heard about the issue if there was one.

There were/are no "errors" in manufacturing of the Shun line, and there is not a widespread problem with chipped edges and broken tips. Just the opposite has been true, the response has been incredible, and the brand has seen worldwide success due to its performance.

To add, we have teams that go out to different stores to educate employees on the details and spec's of the Shun line on a regular basis. This is normal, and I've never heard of a visit being done due to a widespread manufacturing epidemic.

Now I have seen blown out edges and broken tips on Shun's, but it wasn't due to faulty steel.

I know this is a Spydie forum, but let's keep the storytelling of the competition at least factual.

Sorry for the interuption, just had to keep it real.


Thomas
Kershaw Knives

Thomas, thank you for taking the time to post and get things updated. Despite the fact that this is a company forum, I think you'll find that most storytelling (even of other brands) is quite factual, although there are always the obvious exceptions, and you will find a sizable number of Kershaw/Shun fans here, myself included.

People jumping to conclusions is indeed one of the greatest problems seen on any forum, but if there indeed exists a box full of Shuns with chipped edges, then it exists and there's no denying it. However you can rest assured that there are those who take the time to think about the "why" of it all.

As a rule, most people are stupid with kitchen knives, and with a high grade steel and insanely thin edges, Shuns are undoubtedly professional grade knives that might not fare well in amateur hands (much like a Bugatti sportscar). If Shun will continue to be marketed to the general public, it might be wise to provide some resource for learning about how to use the knives properly or at least not destroy them in a horrific manner.

Thanks again for your input, and I hope that others are more understanding of the origins of the problems that lie somewhere in a box.

[Bolster]

An additional comment after thinking about it, Thomas -- I don't agree that Spyderco IS in competition with Kershaw regarding the Shun kitchen knife line. Spyderco doesn't make anything that upscale in kitchen cutlery.

My point is that I believe your focus on "competitive rivalry" as the motivation for my post is entirely misplaced. I'm a steel nut, and I pay attention to evidence that indicates the performance of various steels.

If we can set the "rivalry" theme aside, I'd be interested to hear you elaborate on the reasons for "blown out edges and broken tips on Shun's" that are not related to faulty steel...I'm all ears.

[mikebandw186]

just to add, the SFO carries the Shun kitchen knives. i think that they are beautiful knives, and i don't even like damascus. if i had a use for them, they would certainly be my top choice