STR...Why did you change your mind??

[Plowboy]

STR is a wealth of valuable information concerning folding knives. I always read his posts carefully and feel like I know more about knives after reading them. I have great respect for him.

Awhile back I sent a PM to him asking about the pivot strength of the Caly 3 and his reply was:

The locks on the Delica and Endura knives are probably pretty much the same with the original FRN models compared to the CalyIII but the steel liners in 45 RC (Rockwell) stainless steel do add quite a bit of strength to the CIII that will allow it to perform at a level in the medium duty range if not approach the med/heavy range with more leanings toward heavy than med. That is my best guess anyway. I think most consider the old Delica and the new D4 to be in the same class. I would rate the CIII higher than either of these though just for the stainless spring holder vs the FRN one in the Delica 4 and Endura 4 ... I don't think the difference in spring holder/spacer in the rear of the folder will mean a lot for strength but overall the CalyIII has more of a chance of becoming a hand me down that can last a life time vs one made the way those others are.

Today I was reading a thread dated Nov 10, 2006 that discussed the CIII and UKPK blades. In this thread Mr. Rice stated that:

Make no mistake though, neither of these is the heaviest duty folder Spyderco has ever put out. I'd qualify them both as very capable gentlemans knives and give the CIII my OK for the leanings to the heavy side of light duty and the light side of medium duty class of lock back folder. Light/Medium I guess is where I would rank it. I can only hope Sal would agree with that assessment but I like to think I have a pretty good grasp of things with these folders since I have been intimate with them so many times to have a pretty good pic in my mind of each class as they get beefier.


Steve, did you learn more about the CIII after pulling the blade that makes you feel that the duty rating should be lowered? There is no question that the CIII is a fine piece of cuttlery--the design, egros, finish and materials are first rate-- but is it a sturdy knife?

Thanks for your input.

:)

[dalefuller]

This is gonna be interesting. I'm also a fan of the Caly 3 and would really like to know STR's evaluation of it's sturdiness now that it's been out a while and there's more data to use in forming an opinion.

The only things I have seen that might make it somewhat less sturdy than the D4 are the thinner (top to bottom) blade tang and the flat-ground blade. But I don't know that these differences mean anything. And the lockup seems as solid as a D4 to me. Steve's input will be very valuable here.

[STR]

Hi Plowboy. I don't recall the exact question you asked regarding the knife.

It sounds like I was focused more on one aspect of the total system though, rather than thinking of the knife as a whole. And that is how it reads to me. If you read what I said to you I am focused more on the steel liners comparing it to the D4 and E4 favorably there. I still think the CIII gets a bump up in score, at least from me for the stainless spring holder not seen in the other two mentioned though. Note that I am not speaking of the lock here at all. Chances are the D4 lock is stronger than the CIII. That would be my guess anyway. They are probably close though but I'd put my money on the D4 I think.

My point is that the folding knife is a system. The final rating is based on the how that system comes together as a whole for me. Look at the very balanced system of the HK14205. The lock is as strong as the pivot that is as strong as the handles and liners and the weakest part of the system would be the hollow barrel screw on one end stop pin for the blade in about a 1/8" diameter as I recall. Its not really that weak either because those knives can hold a lot of weight thanks to the system as a whole and the way it comes together.

This is the same way for the Manix and Chinook as well as the Mini Manix that get top scores for the way I see folders. The system comes together in such a way as to be as close to a totally balanced system that it is nearly perfect on these knives. The locks are as strong as the pivot, which is in balance with the liners, which is in balance with the scales and so on and so forth.

In order to rate a knife as a whole or put it in a category of say light, medium or heavy, testing is required, but you can also tell a lot by experience, the obvious and from manufacturer suggestions for what it is rated for. As a whole the CIII is a very sturdy knife that I would rate as a step above the Caly Jr overall. But I stand by my statement that its not the heaviest duty little folder you can get when speaking about the lock. If you want that get a Native because its certainly a stronger lock than the CIII in my opinion but this does not mean I give the Native a higher score in my own mind than the CIII looking at the whole. Hope that makes sense.

When I rate any knife for myself, looking them over I always give one with steel liners or titanium liners and some overscale like G10 or Micarta a higher score than an all FRN or an all G10 only folder. I would give them a higher strength rating for longevity due to the liners personally.

I know of some guys using the CIIIs pretty hard and its taken it admirably. I wouldn't think it will give anyone any troubles in normal use at all and it can even walk into some abnormal times with relative ease and survive it unscathed. Looking at it from the standpoint of the whole, its a great little package with many advantages in my mind. If you want to get into looking at each individual part of the system though that is where you might see how I was seeing it to answer your question to me in the private topic.

Hope that makes sense.

Keep in mind always when reading these posts that anyone in this field is basically in a practice. We practice the art of knife making. Manufacturers, makers, novices, hobbyist. It doesn't matter which you fall into, we practice. With practice comes learning and growing. Sometimes old posts have to be taken with a grain of salt. If you read old posts from an authority today saying how great GIN 1 steel is and how it is the best steel ever you have to then look immediately at the date of when that was said. Then if it was ten years before S30V or ZDP189 you ask yourself, ok what would he say today?

Thanks for asking again. Its always a pleasure.

STR

[Plowboy]

Thanks, STR. Your answer makes good sense and your point about old posts being taken with a grain of salt is a good one too. Progress makes things relative-- I guess.

I also think the point of a folding knife being a system is good to think about. The only concern I ever had with the CIII is that the tang seems to not have much steel around the pivot hole. This was apparent to me as soon as I received it (then I read the UKPK/CIII blade swap thread today and it reinforced my concern). The fact that the blade is 3mm thick probably offsets this issue, however.

STR, I appreciate your detailed response.

:)

[bh49]

Steve,
very interesting, thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I love my Caly3

[bell]

Sounds like Plowboy is a lawyer doing a cross examination. STR is a gentleman and as always provides good information based on emperical and practical knowledge.

[Plowboy]

No, I'm not a lawyer. I was just wondering if STR had spent more time with the CIII and had changed his thoughts on the design.

STR, if my post sounded like "cross examination," please forgive me. I value your opinion and wanted your input--otherwise I would not have asked.

Now, bell, let me look for some holes in your comment...maybe I should think about law--you've got me to thinking??? Probably not...I'd make a lousy lawyer. :)

:)

[STR]

It never hurts to ask. I was happy to clarify it for you.

STR

[Bolster]

I'm still trying to figure out which of STR's postings came first in time, the "awhile back" one or the "Nov 2006" one? Which comment are we taking with a grain of salt? And in the final analysis, is STR's rating of the Caly3 medium light or medium heavy? Sorry for being so dense, but am curious.

[STR]

I think of the CIII as a medium duty folder with ability to lean into some heavy duty stuff sporatically for the user. Its overall build of a solid pin construction with steel liners, nice size pivot that is probably oversized compared to most knives of similar size, and flat ground heavy duty blade all come together to form what is quite solid. All of these things together place it solidly in some rugged use categories in my mind. The lock in my opinion is quite good also, but in the entire system I'd have to say that the lock is probably the weakest part of the system as a whole but certainly more than fine for the class of knife it is. I guess what I am saying is that the CIII lock and spring are the parts of the system that I would not rate higher than medium duty.

Rather than hold me to any of my feelings about the knife though I would suggest asking Sal because he is really the final say in it. What I think or say may or may not always jive with his thoughts. If he suggests its a light/medium, light or medium duty folder it is not going to bother me. Its lock is not the strongest of all Spydercos I have seen so to place the knife solidly into the heavy range would be a bit naive I think. It can lean there in a pinch due to parts of the system that are items you could solidly place in the heavy duty range is all I ever meant.

To clarify this further, I wouldn't make a habit of heavy use day in and day out with the CIII..

If you want a heavy duty lock back folder get a mini Manix or Manix, or maybe a Chinook. Those are all heavy duty knives with heavy duty components for the day in and day out routine heavy use.

STR

[dalefuller]

Thanks, Steve. That gives me a good feel for where I want to use my Caly 3. As an EDC for my kind of cutting (warehouse, house, yard, etc.), it seems perfect. For the only folder on a week-long camping trip, it likely won't replace my Para-Millie or 80 mm Manix.

[John G.]

STR,
How do you think the C3 compares to the D4 ? Heavier duty or lighter duty ? A medium amount or a tiny amount ?

Thanks.

[STR]

Well, both the blades are capable of doing some heavy tasks. Both blades are pretty even I think. Both have the stainless liners, which are again even. Then the scales are pretty even also in my opinion. I know a lot of folks would give the edge to G10, especially the stuff Spyderco uses with 30% more glass but FRN is quite strong too and theirs seems to be a stronger better made quality than a lot of other manufacturers use.

I just don't much care for the FRN spacer/spring holder in that D4 knife John but there really isn't much reason to ding it for that for losing any strength. The real complaint is difficulty getting them back together after a curious venture inside the folder based on feedback I've had from the 20 or more folks that I've put one back together for now. With the little nipple intact in the liners to properly support that upper lip of the spring holder slot its as strong as any metal one I think but in my own mind I give some plus points to the Spyderco crew for using metal in the CIII.


Which is stronger? Its close but I'd give the edge here to the D4 personally because I believe the lock up is seated a bit deeper and as I recall the spring is beefier also. I may be mistaken there though and for all I really know they use the same spring in both.

STR

[Plowboy]

Steve,

You've gotten quite a workout on this thread. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Sometimes when I read about the projects you're working on it makes me want to tear a knife apart and try some type of mod. I know there is a book about working on folders (can't remember the title)-- do you have any recommendations for reading that will provide the basics before jumping into the real mod/repair effort?

Thanks again for your time.

:)

[STR]

When I started there was no such thing as a kit knife. Today access to those can show folks a bunch of what needs to be known to build a folding knife, or even a fixed blade.

I'd suggest to anyone wanting to learn as much about folders in a short time as possible that they buy a lock back, frame lock, liner lock and slip joint kit knife from http://www.knifekits.com and learn from on the job training so to speak while they assemble them and study each part and how its made learning why in the process hopefully. Wish I'd have had that option back when I started. My way to learn was buying an existing knife, tearing it apart and tracing every part out and then remaking it from scratch.

This method works also but the kits are a lot easier because taking an old knife apart, particularly a slip joint can often times damage it beyond repair just from being curious.

As for books on folders. The one Bob Terzuola wrote on tactical knives, titled "The Tactical Folding Knife" is a great start to learn the whys and how tos of the anatomy of a folder but I don't agree with everything in it regarding the proper way to make the locks and feel that some further refinements by Spyderco and BenchMade among others are an improvement to Bob's suggestions unless the book I have has been edited since its printing date. It is very good though.

For lockbacks I really don't know because I've never found a good book on this. One of my pet peves about most of these tutorials and books is that they make the craft so much more difficult than it needs to be and only focus on the 'ideal' of how it should be done without discussing or even making mention of any of the real world shortcuts or other things to really tell the reader how they actually do it themselves when the cameras are off and no one is watching. Believe me its much like dental school in this regard. Sure you learn a lot by the books and the teachers being anal about details and how to 'properly' do the job but in the real world if you did it the way they teach you in dental school you'd go bankrupt the first year or quit from frustration by trying to repeatedly maintain this rigidity of what is 'proper'. In other words there are two different realities here and one is all that is ever talked about. Anyway, end that rant.

Besides all this the fact is that lockbacks and slip joints are a different league entirely than building liner and frame locks so I'd recommend starting with those lesser involved to get your feet wet anyway.

STR

[Plowboy]

I appreciate your help. I'll begin looking into some kits.

Take care,
:)

[STR]

No problem. I edited that last post now that I had more time to sit and detail a few things.

STR

[Bolster]

Great post on how to understand knives, STR. Thanks a million!