Kiss the Balis good bye...

[druid]

From my viewpoint I collect one hand opening pocket knives for the most part and do not own and have very limited experience with "butterfly knives" they seem if anything slower to open and more cumbersome than most. The reason for their classification goes back to the days I believe of the nail nick Buck knives carried either deepen the pocket or in a snap closed belt sheath. Comparatively a switchblade or a butterfly knife had at the time have a much faster rate of deployment. In addition to this and this may be pure urban legend the butterfly knife was favored by Asian gangs and got a reputation as a "gang" weapon in the same category as brass knuckles. from this somewhat arcane standpoint this legislation can be understood, if not condoned.

unfortunately I believe the that comparing the ease of opening of a one hand operating knife to that of a butterfly knife, does more to place be one hand operating knife in the illegal category, than it does to serve as a rationale for the legalization of the butterfly knife.

I believe that the biggest harm today, is actually cheap knockoff one hand openers sold by big five and the like. that are made to look big and mean and tactical, while in reality are so flimsily made they are I believe more dangerous to the consumer than anyone else. in addition in many cases these knives are carried by young idiots who delight in further weakening whatever lock integrity these knives actually dubiously contain by absurdly loosening the pivots and flicking them open at every public opportunity. and then I come along with my smooth operating high-end liner lock, which is also with the application of sum force, capable of being opened with the snap of a wrist. and suddenly i am the villain with an illegal gravity knife, and a lot more to lose if it is impounded/stolen by law-enforcement.

I think this trend will only worsen, I find it not implausible that there will come a day when to have any pocket knife on public streets will be viewed similarly to carrying one on a DC-10. And of course these streets will be if anything far less safe than they are now.

[trout #2]

I'm not as into Bali's as some people here, but the way the laws treat them is absurd. I finally stopped dragging my feet and joined Knife Rights and will also be picking up some extra :spyder: 's as soon as I can (not that I really need an excuse to buy extra Spyderco goodies though.... :cool: )

[eljay]

Ouch!

The wave's next.

[cobrajoe]

Ouch!

The wave's next.

How long until the spydie hole becomes a threatening feature?

[eljay]

How long until the spydie hole becomes a threatening feature?

After the wave, before they ban knives with pointy tips.

[Axlis]

After the wave, before they ban knives with pointy tips.

One day it will be so bad that the only option we'll have is a non locking sheepsfoot ladybug trainer

[Jeffo]

Like I said earlier soon we'll be using safety scissors at home for cutting chores. Kitchen knives and any knives for that fact will be banned if it keeps up the way things are going now. Its all a bunch of BS!

[Fred Sanford]

So I don't get this. Are they in trouble for the importing of parts to make the Balis?

....or are they in trouble for making and selling them period?

Benchmade makes Bali's and sells them, why didn't they get in trouble too?

[flyguy]

Sure, why not post your idea under the "Fly Fund" thread? Also, as we reach consensus, I can edit the wording of the initial post.

Nah, I posted in this one to get some feedback... Didn't want to detract from the idea of the "fly fund" by having discussions in it.

I thought about it, and it might hurt the fund more than help by not letting people shop where they are used to shopping.

(I went to buy a Police Necklace that I had seen semi-locally, and it was gone, so no addition to the Fly Fund from me... YET.)

[smcfalls13]

So I don't get this. Are they in trouble for the importing of parts to make the Balis?

....or are they in trouble for making and selling them period?

Benchmade makes Bali's and sells them, why didn't they get in trouble too?

For right now, they're only in trouble for importing parts. Customs classifies Balis as Switchblades, so the importing of parts for them is also illegal.

I thought Federal Law did not classify Balis as Switchblades, but I need to do some more reading to confirm that.

[smcfalls13]

After a little more research, I see that I am in fact mistaken. I assumed it was simply an obscure rarely enforced customs regulation that resulted in this current incident, but I was wrong, and the implications are much more grave.

The Switchblade Knife Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1241-1245 is a FEDERAL law, not some obscure piece of **** customs dreamed up.

It states (more or less) that Switchblade may not be introduced into interstate commerce. Manufacturing them or transporting them for the purposes of interstate commerce are illegal.

Apparently, it's against Consitutional law to allow the Federal government to ban Switchblades outright(thought States DO have that power), but it IS within the Federal governments power to regulate trade between the states. So they do the next best thing and restrict Switchblades to the states in which they were manufactured, which basically, is the same as banning them.

In plain english, that means Switchblades can't cross state lines. Period. There are a few exceptions. They can be manufactured for interstate commerce only if the manufacturer has a contract with the Military for the Switchblades.

That's the basic gist of the Switchblade law that was quoted in that article.

From conversations with other Bali enthusiasts on other forums who are older and more knowledgeable than myself, a similar incident ocurred in the 1980s, where customs declared Balisongs were the same as Switchblades. The fallout from that was that many States adopted that interpretation of the Switchblade act, and those are the same states today that make possession of a Bali illegal.

However, it is still only within the power of the individual states to decide if Balisongs are Switchblades. In my own state, Balisongs are not considered Switchblades(knock on wood that it stays that way). Therefore it is perfectly legal for me to own them and buy them from another state and transport them across state lines as much as I **** well want to.

I'm not sure how it works if the manufacturers state classifies them as Switchblades, and the buyers state does not.

The short version of this: I really hope individual states don't take it upon themselves to include Balisongs in their state Switchblade definition.

[huugh]

It states (more or less) that Switchblade may not be introduced into interstate commerce. Manufacturing them or transporting them for the purposes of interstate commerce are illegal.

Does it apply to international commerce as well? (e.g. if I were to buy a balisong)

[markg]

So I don't get this. Are they in trouble for the importing of parts to make the Balis?

....or are they in trouble for making and selling them period?

Benchmade makes Bali's and sells them, why didn't they get in trouble too?

It has been common knowledge that for years, US Customs has deemed butterfly knives as illegal for import. Hence why you don't see imported butterfly knives.

Here is the problem, the federal law states that a "switchblade" is:


(b) The term “switchblade knife” means any knife having a blade which opens automatically—
(1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife, or
(2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.

It is that last definition that the Custom's service is using. It is vague, and since you "swing" open a Bali, it "fits" their interpretation of things.

The "loophole" used to be, that if it was not assembled it was not a knife. We have all seen the old imported kits for autos and Bali's. Guess that loophole was closed.


And the previous poster is right about states. When Cold Steel began selling butterfly knives, they had to open an office in TX to sell them from, since they are illegal in CA (where Cold Steel is located).

It is illegal to ship auto's across state lines, however who is looking for it? It would be the post office that would have to, and looks like they don't care (or some other govt. agency). Customs will and does check for imported knives they deem illegal. It is just the nature of "customs" services. Witness the problems our friends up north have. It does not matter if they have interpreted the law correctly, there is nothing anyone can do about it. Same case here.

I seem to remember another time US Customs seized some Spyderco knives, and they were not autos or Bali's. Maybe they have it out for them? Who knows.

I am not ready to say the sky is falling as of yet, however I do feel bad for Spyderco for getting nailed on this.

[smcfalls13]

Does it apply to international commerce as well? (e.g. if I were to buy a balisong)

As I interpret the law(not a lawyer), provided the state of manufacture does not classify Balis as Switchblades, then export of them would be perfectly legal.

If for example, Colorado classifies Balis as Switchblades, than they are legally bound to keep those Balis/Switchblades in the state of Colorado, unless they are being sold to the Military. This means that theoretically, if there were a Switchblade manufacturer in my own state, I could walk into the store and purchase one, no questions asked(assuming Switchblades are legal to own)

If however, the state in question does not classify Balis as Switchblades, than export of them is the same as all other knives. It would be subject to customs laws at your end though.

Though in all honesty, I'm not sure if customs checks outgoing parcels at all. :confused:

[smcfalls13]

The "loophole" used to be, that if it was not assembled it was not a knife. We have all seen the old imported kits for autos and Bali's. Guess that loophole was closed.

I'm starting to wonder if there ever WAS a loophole at all, or if it was simply something that was never enforced. I find it hard to believe that loophole was closed without any fanfare. Something like that would have been celebrated by customs officials(a victory for them and all that). Could have just been sneaky little bastids.

Thanks by the way, your explanation of the Switchblade act was a lot more understandable than mine :cool:

[The Mastiff]

Flyguy is right calling for the sales to be made from the company store. SFO may be a bit more than some we deal with typically but in this case it's worth it as it all goes to Spyderco, not 35 to 40% with the rest shared between wholesaler and dealer.

Spyderco is worth it and I will be making an order on payday from SFO. I hope everybody else does to. Buying one from NGK doesn't have the same impact.

Tell them at SFO what you are doing and why. When they see an extra 20 or 30 thousand in sales with people telling them they are appreciated it might sink in that, yes, we do make a difference in peoples lives.

They do for me anyways. Think about it. Joe

[Ribz]

You do realise that the current administration in your country is Republican, don't you?

Do you actually think is was President Bush or his administration (or the current congress) that passed the legislation for these type of knives? :confused: your knee jerk reaction for the dislike of the "current administration" (and trust me i have a few issues with them myself, immigration to name one but im not going to get to political) has led you to make an ill informed comment that has no basis.

State laws tells the who, what, when, where and how you can have these knives, guns, state taxes, OHV recreation areas, cigarettes, knitting needles ball point pens..

Federal laws restrict the import/export and transportation.
Spyderco F-ed up by mailing these knives, probably with the USPS and there stuff got confiscated because they demonstrated that they couldnt handle the product in accordance with the law and got punished for it. They didnt get in trouble for the importing of the parts, loopholes is my guess ]even Kalifornia[/I] :p


Florida
In 2003, Governor Jeb Bush(R) over turned a questionable law stating "No one shall carry a self propelled knife". The law was cleared up to allow Florida residents to use so called switchblade knives.

i wouldnt call that "cleared up" id call it completely changing the law in the right direction :D

"Do you think there should be much tougher laws regarding carrying a knife?
I certainly do.
The laws for carrying knives should be as strict as they are for guns. The laws about knives are complicated and they need to be sorted out."

I certainly do NOT its just more leftist BS, its appalling that someone could think like this, i wonder when they will start regulating the amount of air we breathe



:spyder: Ive been carrying Spyderco knives for easily 13+ years and will continue to support them any way i can just like i always have. Keep your head up Sal, good things happen to good people :spyder:

-Mike

[merciful]

No, I don't think the federal administration (or Congress) that passed these crazy laws: I understand how your system works, even though I've chosen not to live in your country. What I've seen since The War On Terror began, though, is an erosion of your peoples' rights, begun from the top down, and I don't think that electing another Republican president will stem the tide.

I don't think that the federal govenment believes at all that (to paraphrase the Second Amendment) a well-armed militia is necessary to the security of a free state, and I think that they'll try to move further-and-further toward making sure you're not armed at all.

I'm no leftist: I'm a solid libertarian. If I still lived in the USA, I'd have a concealed-carry permit, and be a member of the NRA and kniferights.org.

Do you actually think is was President Bush or his administration (or the current congress) that passed the legislation for these type of knives? :confused: your knee jerk reaction for the dislike of the "current administration" (and trust me i have a few issues with them myself, immigration to name one but im not going to get to political) has led you to make an ill informed comment that has no basis.

[Fred Sanford]

Thanks markg and smcfalls13! You guys are always helpful.

That pretty much sucks for Spyderco and I do feel bad for them.

It sounds like it's sorta the same case as with Autos. What I mean is that unless you're a LEO or Military you cannot even buy an Auto. People however do it all the time online. Heck even my local BM dealer has offered to sell me Autos because I will "collect" them and not use them.

[markg]

Thanks markg and smcfalls13! You guys are always helpful.

That pretty much sucks for Spyderco and I do feel bad for them.

It sounds like it's sorta the same case as with Autos. What I mean is that unless you're a LEO or Military you cannot even buy an Auto. People however do it all the time online. Heck even my local BM dealer has offered to sell me Autos because I will "collect" them and not use them.

There has never really been an issue with Bali's. Most retailers will sell you a Bali, but not an auto. Try to figure out, just what an inertia or gravity knife really is.