Spyderco Best Self defense Model ?

[ironmansf32]

I am lookin for a self defense knife . I prefer a folding type knife that i could also pack and use for every day use . And also carry with the clip on the side . Which model spyderco in your opnion is the best for the needs . I described above ? I am very new to knifes and i am a bad newbie . Thanks to all . And happy holidays may god bless each and ever one . :)

[mike biz]

I think this has been covered quite a bit before on the forum but I'll throw in my two cents. You may want to look into the Tasman Salt SE. It's a real slasher, but probably not the best stabber with its shape and fine tip. It likely won't freak too many people if you decide to use it in your daily work. The Civilian/Matriarch is a dedicated SD blade, but being that it is a specialty knife, it's not very good for much else. I've never handled one, but that seems to be the consensus and just by looking at it I'd have to agree. Also take a look at the Yojimbo. And finally, check out the yet to be released P'kal. That's also a dedicated SD, so it should fit your needs well. There are many choices so do your homework. What I can say for sure is that you can't go wrong with a :spyder: Good luck.

mike biz

[Th232]

Also depends on the level/type of training you're going to put in. If you're just going to go berserk and hope for the best (which might not be the best method), I would say the Civilian, since it was designed for people with not much training. Unfortunately, as Mike said above, it's a dedicated SD blade with very little utility value. The Yojimbo is still a dedicated SD blade, but has more utility value than the Civvie (and thus easier to explain to the police). The Tasman Salt is more of a utility design which can also serve as a good SD blade if you slash a lot.

[edkrueger]

I think i'd have to go with the captain or the endura wave. Captain is very robust and very thick so it would leave a big bleeding wound. I also think (i'm not sure about this) that the captain could be used defensively rather like a karambit. oh lets add the karambit. The endura might not be that great once out but its relay quick to open. Anything with big thick handles make a good defense.

[224477]

There are many good choices, something for everyone:

Civilian
Waved Endura or Delica
Dodo
Chinook 2 or 3
Yojimbo
Ronin
P`Kal

and if you need to be really low profile, than I would suggest the Cricket or


LAVA :cool:

[Mr Blonde]

Based on skill level and my opinion:

Little or no training - Civilian
A seminar or two - Yojimbo
Extensive training - Chinook II or III


Wouter

[Puyallupknifegu]

I agree about the training...training is your key to the best outcome.


Yojimbo should fit just about any skill level, civvie slash and run, waved endura 4 deploys ridiculously fast and after cutting myself with mine last night, I'm very convinced that it would "cut me out of a bad situation". :rolleyes: Chinook...good slashing and stabbing?


Remember that a knife is an extension of yourself and a force multiplier...make sure you know and have decided what you're going to do with it before you pull it for SD!!

Tim

[kbuzbee]

Good answers. I tend to carry mid sized "utility" blades (read Lil'Temp). They do everything great. I suppose if I ever decided to use one for SD they would cut people as well as they cut anything else :D .

That said, the comments on training are spot on. With the right training you can defend yourself with anything (literally - check the cane-masters site). My recommendation (as you describe your needs) would be to find a knife you really like then learn to use it effectively.

As an opposite POV though. it seems most here who are really into SD carry (obviously, I'm not) seem to recommend carrying a dedicated SD knife. I suppose that's so it's SD sharp (not dulled by the days other activities). I get that.

Ken

[cobrajoe]

Best is a hard term to define. Are there any specifics that you want or need? Blade length, handle material, mostly utility with possible SD?

I definately put a vote in for the Dodo. It's an awesome knife for utility with a great grip and a tail that could be used for striking.

Don't forget about the SPOT or Swick, the finger hole on those makes disarming almost impossible. Although the blade reach is kind of limited.

[Joe Talmadge]

I feel the waved endura is Spyderco's best SD knife currently. First and perhaps most importantly, it's got the base level of strength and reliability needed. It's also very carryable -- yes, the Civilian is very formidable just based on size alone, but for many people that size excludes it. Endura is carryable, with a size as well. Beyond that, here are the key points:

- The Wave. I feel people underestimate the advantage of the wave. One quick action to open the knife is a big advantage, and even if you fumble the draw and the knife only opens partway, a quick snap finishes the draw. I know this may not seem like a huge advantage when you're practicing your draw in the comfort and safety of your living room, but anyone who has tried this under high-stress training will see the wave's advantage. Instead of judging this feature under unrealistic low-pressure conditions, try having your partner attack you from close in (have him thump you with enough intensity that it stresses you, but obviously don't hurt each other), then fight to create space to draw ... suddenly the wave's advantage looks huge, right?

- The blade. Many people here feel that hooked or S-curved blades are best for the untrained. My experience shows exactly the opposite. Again, things may work fine in a no-pressure situation. But my experience, over and over again, is that when when someone untrained is put under pressure and stress (modelling a real assault), his instincts will absolutely scream to add forward kinetic energy (i.e., thrust). Fighting your instincts, especially if you're a beginner, is bad and likely to lead to reduced effectiveness. A trained fighter can re-define his instincts and react smoothly with slashes even under pressure. The more of a beginner you are, the more foolish you are if you choose a knife with a blade that disallows thrusting, IMO and IME. The endura is great at both thrusting and slashing.

---- In summary, pressure testing leads me to very different conclusions than the common theories about what's good for beginners. I've seen the things I've described consistently in training.


Joe

[Joe Talmadge]

As an opposite POV though. it seems most here who are really into SD carry (obviously, I'm not) seem to recommend carrying a dedicated SD knife. I suppose that's so it's SD sharp (not dulled by the days other activities). I get that.

I'm not sure that there's a majority who recommend a dedicated SD knife, it seems to be split in general. I personally don't like the idea of a dedicated SD knife. Carrying, opening, using, handling, learning the cutting quirks, etc. of your knife in utility use can only be an advantage on SD. And if your knife starts getting dull, sharpen it, no reason to carry a dedicated knife for sharpness IMO.

[Joe Talmadge]

Little or no training - Civilian
A seminar or two - Yojimbo
Extensive training - Chinook II or III

Funny, I'd say exactly the opposite!

Little or no training: Chinook II or III, effective thruster and effective slasher, good all-around for instinctive use.

Much training: Civilian. Inability for a beginner to follow his most urgent instincts under stress -- to thrust -- makes this suitable for the highly trained only. As a counterpoint, the civilian is so dang big that it's probably useful in anybody's hands, but as you downscale to something like a Matriarch, you're moving more and more towards skilled fighter territory.

Yojimbo is in between, since it can thrust but that's not its forte

[mr.vu]

I say the Chinook. Nice upswept bowie blade. Large finger and handle guards.

Vu

[Dannyvi]

I am lookin for a self defense knife . I prefer a folding type knife that i could also pack and use for every day use . And also carry with the clip on the side . Which model spyderco in your opnion is the best for the needs . I described above ? I am very new to knifes and i am a bad newbie . Thanks to all . And happy holidays may god bless each and ever one . :)

How about a Gunting? That was made for SD mainly.

[Fuglee]

I'd vote for either the Chinook or the Endura Wave.

While the Civilian is a mean looking knife and I'm sure is a great slasher, the thrusting issue is problematic. Joe Talmadge's posts are spot on in my opinion.

I've never handled a Yojimbo but it looks like it'd give a good grip. I'd rather have a Chinook or Endura though, due to the almost inch more of blade.

I love the Karambit and I regularly carry one. However, I would not recommend it as a primary SD knife, ESPECIALLY if you haven't had any training in using karambits. I think it's a great knife, if you zip tie it and know how to use it. If you don't, you're just giving yourself a handicap in my opinion.

I love the small spydercos. Most cut extremely well and you can get a very secure grip on some of them. As a primary SD knife though? I'd be more comfortable carrying something with a 3-4 inch blade.

I'm probably one of the only people on the forum that doesn't like the Gunting, so you'd probably want to get some opinions from people other then me =) However, even if they were readily available for less than the $200 that you'd have to drop for one, I still wouldn't recommend it. I owned one for a week before I sold it and I didn't like it at all. I couldn't recommend one as a primary SD knife if you didn't have extensive training. Even if you had a lot of training I wouldn't recommend it. That's just 1 person's opinion though. There are a ton of people on here that swear by the Gunting so I wouldn't go off of what just 1 person said about it.

I like the Endura Wave a lot. It's long, it deploys fast, the grip is decent, it's cheap compared to most of the SD knives, and it's very utilitarian. If I had to choose only 1 knife to use for both utility and SD, I'd pick the Endura. In terms of pure SD though, I still prefer the Chinook.

The Chinook is a great knife. It's large, intimidating and I like the style of the blade. The handle is also one of the best that I've been able to find, which is a huge deal. You have a more secure grip with the Chinook then with the Endura, in my opinion. The Chinook is also built like a tank and feels very solid. The new Endura is a solid knife as well, just not as beastly as the Chinook.

The Chinook also works very well with a zip tie, which makes it equal to the Endura in terms of deployment. I've owned a Chinook II for nearly 2 years now and it has been zip tied from the get go. In my experience, it is actually more reliable then my Delica Wave in terms of opening. The Chinook's blade is also very heavy which means a simple wrist flick will finish the job on a botched opening, just as Joe said.

The only downside to the Chinook, in my opinion, is the blade shape for utilitarian purposes. I've found the that bowie style blade doesn't work all that great for opening boxes and the like. The Endura would fit that role much better. Some would view that as a problem...I view that as a reason to carry multiple spyders =) The Endura is also cheaper than the Chinook.

Those are my brief thoughts on the SD issue. I like something simple and well built like the Chinook or the Endura. Some knives try to over specialize and just get complicated and hard to use under pressure.

All this has obviously been my opinion. Not intending to step on any toes =) Apologies in advance if I managed to. Any spyder in your hand is better than no spyder.

-Fugs

[Terry Trahan]

My favorite carry/sd knife is the waved Delica.
It somehow always finds it's way to my pocket, everyday.
I carry others, obviously, but that is the best balance of work/emergency.

But wait til the P'kal comes out, I'll have arguments with myself over which one to carry everyday.

Joe and Fuglee(tell Bobbe hi) make some good points, but the best advice is to listen to what you feel, and practice with everything you can find, feel comfortable with any knife, that way you don't give yourself a unneeded handicap if that time comes.

[Mr Blonde]

Funny, I'd say exactly the opposite!

Little or no training: Chinook II or III, effective thruster and effective slasher, good all-around for instinctive use.

Much training: Civilian. Inability for a beginner to follow his most urgent instincts under stress -- to thrust -- makes this suitable for the highly trained only. As a counterpoint, the civilian is so dang big that it's probably useful in anybody's hands, but as you downscale to something like a Matriarch, you're moving more and more towards skilled fighter territory.

Yojimbo is in between, since it can thrust but that's not its forte

Good points, my background in Japanese arts lead me to prefer the cut over the thrust. Not necessarily a conscious choice, if the thrust presents itself we go for it. We just lean towards cutting.

Of course the Chinook is a very straightforward design that in its conventional 'look' will appeal to many beginners. However, smaller finesses are put in it; like the way the butt-end of the handle is designed, the balance of the knife, the belly of the edge for snapcuts, and the upswept tip for 'almost-backcuts' and the curved spine can be used for more advanced guiding and trapping of limbs. Maybe not down and gritty 'street techniques', but a trained martial artist will find the Chinook to be a design he can explore for a long time. THat's why I rate it as the best knife for those with more training.

I found that the yojimbo really complements Michael Janich's work in print -and probably on tape too- very well. Once you learn Janich's most often mentioned/preferred grip (saber with extended thumb) the rest of his techniques almost come by themselves, once you read his book 'Knifefighting - a practical course' for example. Almost every block, pass, thrust and cut from that book comes very naturally with the Yojimbo in the aforementioned grip. You learn Janich's knifework really fast with that particular knife.

The Civilian and its intended 'slashing' use feels very intuitive to me, coming from a 'cutting background'; admittedly a 'trained opinion' vs. the perspective of the beginner. To me, the slashing Civilian, mimicks the move of 'stay away'. Your points on thrusting being the most likely instinctive move for beginners sound very plausible. Though in my training/classes, I've seen most beginners trying to block/cut against incoming attacks, rather than thrusting. Beginners were very focussed on the attacking arm, not minding the entire opponent. With that in mind they focus on blocking that arm or slashing against it. In that perspective, it actually takes more training in, Iaijutsu for example, to have students step away from the attacking weapon bearing limb and to focus with a thrust on another part of the attacker.

In hindsight, you should read my opinions/recommendations on this topic as coming from someone who's been trained in classic Japanese arts (Iaido/Iaijutsu for example) and who's looking for the practical application of these techniques. I've not been trained formally in modern 'reality styles', nor do I feel the direct personal need for self defense in my life. It's an interesting hobby to me. So place it in that context.

Good points on the wave, I hadn't thought of that. A waved endura seems indeed a practical choice; grab it, pull, and apply. Plus, the light weight and flat profile make it very easy to carry.

Wouter

[Joe Talmadge]

The Civilian and its intended 'slashing' use feels very intuitive to me, coming from a 'cutting background']

That makes perfect sense to me. You're trained, and what you do feels natural, and of course it's hard to imagine that it doesn't feel natural to everyone else, too.

To me, the slashing Civilian, mimicks the move of 'stay away'. Your points on thrusting being the most likely instinctive move for beginners sound very plausible. Though in my training/classes, I've seen most beginners trying to block/cut against incoming attacks, rather than thrusting. Beginners were very focussed on the attacking arm, not minding the entire opponent. With that in mind they focus on blocking that arm or slashing against it.

In my experience, students switched from preferring slashing to thrusting based on the nature of the drill. The more the drill looked like duel, or like a flow drill, or with both folks similarly armed with a knife and starting from long range, the more slashing is an attractive option. Once I started changing the drills to start from close range with an explosive attack (more like a real criminal assault, IMO), the slashes disappeared nearly 100% as the overwhelming instinct to thrust against forward drive took over. Even experienced folks switched to a thrust-heavy defense once the drill felt less technical and more criminal assault-y. Note that we don't do knife-on-knife in all cases, again mimicking a real criminal attack, there's no reason to think that just because you have a knife the bad guy will also.

Anyway, again there's no denying that the Civilian is formidable based on size alone, but beyond that, the closer to a beginner you are the more you want to have the option of thrusting. In fact, even if you're trained and prefer slashing, my experience is that if most of your training is longer-range more duel-like drills, you might revert to thrusting when the drills get more explosive and realistic. If you want to slash (or do anything else) instinctively, you'll want to re-train the amygdala under stress. Otherwise, the amygdala seems to prefer that you thrust :)

[Diamondback]

I very much enjoy reading everyones opinions....many of you are so knowledgeable. Specifically I wouldn't want to say what I think is Spyderco's best....there really are so many good ones. What does strike me about the line in general is just that.... nearly all of them make for more than just "adequate" self defense tools. At first glance I know that seems rather simplistic...certainly any edged blade can be adapted if the need arises to fulfill a defensive role. Beyond that however, I suggest that either consciously or unconsciously Spyderco designs with that intent...although when the design has effective edge geometry, is ergonomic, and can be deployed quickly all that is really left is the training and the mental discipline.

-regards

[Mr Blonde]

In my experience, students switched from preferring slashing to thrusting based on the nature of the drill. The more the drill looked like duel, or like a flow drill, or with both folks similarly armed with a knife and starting from long range, the more slashing is an attractive option. Once I started changing the drills to start from close range with an explosive attack (more like a real criminal assault, IMO), the slashes disappeared nearly 100% as the overwhelming instinct to thrust against forward drive took over. Even experienced folks switched to a thrust-heavy defense once the drill felt less technical and more criminal assault-y. Note that we don't do knife-on-knife in all cases, again mimicking a real criminal attack, there's no reason to think that just because you have a knife the bad guy will also.

This reflects my experience with teaching beginners 100%. keep in mind that I always start with with the formal stuff, to get the fundamentals down. No as you say high-stress drills, just added stress in the beginning by inducing fatigue :D , the beginners indeed favor slashing.

When the agression of the attacker is increased, the range closes and whenthe weapons get shorter (short stick, palmstick or knife), the defence becomes more aggressive as well. It's been -to me- an almost universal rule that aggression translates to stabbing. It is, however, also a response that needs to be trained with most people; that it's ok to use your agression. After that is learnt, to maintain your calm, breathing and thinking during an aggressive realistic attack is another goal entirely.

Indeed for pure street self defense, the cultivation of agression and how to use it is perhaps the most important asset.

I've read an article about the amygdala once and its function in animals, and that is was found that the size of the amygdala is related to the potential for aggression. The bigger the organ, the higher the potential for aggression. I'm pretty sure I have a very small Amygdala.

Thanks for making me think it through more.

On a related note; I've tried to practice with Pikal methods lately a bit in my free training hours. I was surprised how easy it is to pick up, and you do get to see more uses for thrusting, even in blocking and passing.


Wouter