OK Computer question

[VWTattoo]

See, The fact is, some Public and Private Access Points are unsecured, and when you have a wireless device that is set to automatically connect to any available network, like at a coffee shop, bookstore, library, campus, etc., you MAY connect to that device and use the PUBLIC resources, mainly Internet bandwidth. However, on a home network/ residential, AKA PRIVATE Access Point that is unsecured, it is not a public service that is meant for someone untrusted to use that bandwidth, as someone is paying to have the Access Point for their private use, and not for sharing with the community.

So, let's say you are in a neighborhood, and you happen to find someone's private but unsecured network, and you are still set up for your Coffee Shop settings where your WiFi will automatically connect to any available network. You suddenly make a Network Connection, unbeknownst to you at that time. At that point in time, your PC has made a connection to a Private Network Access Point. If you do NOT use that connection to pull up an internet resource, you ARE still connected to that AP, but NOT using bandwidth. If you then open up http://www.spyderco.com, for example, then you ARE using that Private Connection's available bandwidth. While the first case is inadvertent, the latter is NOT, because you should know that when in an area where a PUBLIC Access Point is not available, any WiFi connection you have made is most likely to a Private Access Point.

As has been mentioned, WiFi routing is SHARING a single IP address of the actual Modem which is connecting to a Service Provider. If you were to do something surreptitious, that activity can be traced back to that modem's IP address, and not necessarily to the WiFi user roaming around, stealing bandwidth.

Does that makes sense?

[DAYWALKER]

Aloha coltsguy,

Funny ya bring this up. I just bought a laptop also and it came with that WI-FI thingy in it. As soon as I turned it on, it said I was "connected". Sometimes it was not connected so it asked me to "refresh network connections" or something. Several "hotspots" appeared, some with a lock next to them. Those were secure hotspots and needed a code to use/access. However...

Some were not secure hotspots and my laptop connected automatically. It had a warning prior to connection saying that, "This is an unsecure sight, others may view what you do, yada-yada..."

So...I briefly read what was written here. Uh...so was I in the wrong for using a hotspot? AFAIK, there is no way in heck I could "infiltrate" other computers by doing my own thing. :confused:

Interesting and thanks all you computer smart dudes!!!

God bless :cool:

[chinook]

...
Does that makes sense?

Nope...

My MS Outlook is set to access my email automatically every so often (I don't know offhand) It is automatic!!!! It is a default setting of the operating system. If it senses an internet connection it goes and gets. I have other autoenabled conveniences(MS Update, Norton Antivirus Liveupdate) which only require an active connection to initiate their robotic commands.

If I am "connected" I lose a small measure of my control over the automated conveniences provided by Redmond and if I cannot control them... Am I responsible for them? Especially if they manifest themselves automatically upon booting up?

OK I recognize the diff between inadvertent access and deliberate circumvention of fees. Butt if all applicable fees have been paid and no overuse or abuse by this account is in evidence... then can my provider terminate solely because a new owner of a laptop "connects" to my router and accesses his email account?

[Chucula]

for anyone who still does not understand the law that Hannibal brought up, here is my version:
lets say the wireless internet connection is a train station. You can walk all over the train station, but if you want to go on the train you need a ticket.
Maybe that will help, assuming it is an accurate metaphor :D .

Using the bandwith is stealing even if they are not using it. Its like taking someone's paid train seat.

[chinook]

...

Using the bandwith is stealing even if they are not using it. Its like taking someone's paid train seat.

You lost me on that last sentence...

[coltsguy]

Using the bandwith is stealing even if they are not using it. Its like taking someone's paid train seat.[/QUOTE]

I guess i look at it as though it is inside my house and even though i am not subscribing to it i am not going out of my way to steal it? The Ohio Revised Code say's theft is to deprive the owner of property or services....This is a gray area i have never ran into on the job, I am sure there will be case law on it sooner or later hopefully not the State Of Ohio-VS- ME :eek: :eek: :eek:

[VWTattoo]

Nope...

My MS Outlook is set to access my email automatically every so often (I don't know offhand) It is automatic!!!! It is a default setting of the operating system. If it senses an internet connection it goes and gets. I have other autoenabled conveniences(MS Update, Norton Antivirus Liveupdate) which only require an active connection to initiate their robotic commands.

If I am "connected" I lose a small measure of my control over the automated conveniences provided by Redmond and if I cannot control them... Am I responsible for them? Especially if they manifest themselves automatically upon booting up?

OK I recognize the diff between inadvertent access and deliberate circumvention of fees. Butt if all applicable fees have been paid and no overuse or abuse by this account is in evidence... then can my provider terminate solely because a new owner of a laptop "connects" to my router and accesses his email account?

Chinook- Not to split hairs, but this is important you understand. Your "automaatic" updating, email service, AV updates, etc. are configurable and are not locked into that state. While I can see your point that these things go on in the background, you are capable of stopping this from happening by adjusting your settings.

This really only affects people who are roaming around with some kind of wireless access. (PDA, laptop, etc.) If you are a mobile user, and you need to get connected to the internet to do your business, it is your responsibility to have your machine/ device set to connect legally.

If you are an owner of a Wireless Access Point, you are responsible to secure your AP. So if someone is sniffing for any unsecured network and they scarf off of your bandwidth, that is the AP owner's fault for not enabling minimal security and they are potentially liable for any criminal activities that take place on their IP.

[chinook]

Chinook- Not to split hairs, but this is important you understand. Your "automaatic" updating, email service, AV updates, etc. are configurable and are not locked into that state. While I can see your point that these things go on in the background, you are capable of stopping this from happening by adjusting your settings.

This really only affects people who are roaming around with some kind of wireless access. (PDA, laptop, etc.) If you are a mobile user, and you need to get connected to the internet to do your business, it is your responsibility to have your machine/ device set to connect legally.

If you are an owner of a Wireless Access Point, you are responsible to secure your AP. So if someone is sniffing for any unsecured network and they scarf off of your bandwidth, that is the AP owner's fault for not enabling minimal security and they are potentially liable for any criminal activities that take place on their IP.

And when these 'minimal' security measures fail then do we assess blame/liability to the software designer or the hardware engineer or manufacturer or maybe Amazon or Dell or Circuit City for selling the instrument used in the crime? Or is it back to me for not anticipating the lengths the poor perp was forced to go to in order to circumvent my feeble attempt at network security as advised by the minimum wage clerk at Walmart. How about the Telecomms for providing access to backbones connected to tailbones so close to wallets to be picked.

How about putting the liability on the ELU who does the crime?

Butt I was actually debating whether it was a crime to 'use' the available service, not 'abuse' the sevice.

[VWTattoo]

Use or abuse- if you are not the one paying for the Internet connection, you are taking something that isn't yours, unless it is provided for public access.

Granted, if you inadvertantly connect to someone's private AP and your AV software updates itself, that may just be for a minute, and they will probably never know about it. Should you be in trouble for it? In my opinion, no.

As for placing blame on the retailer, software developer, hardware manufacturer for someone's illegal use of any product: that is just silly. I am only trying to explain how these things work.Taking something that doesn't belong to me is wrong. I wouldn't place blame on any of the above folks if someone took my bandwidth because I never bothered to read the manual that came with the product, read the help files, or do some research to protect what is mine. Security isn't hard at all if one were to take 5 minutes to read the manual, check the proper page, and set up some sort of security.

The ELU should be the one who gets the blame for wrongdoings, but how can you prove who that person was, especially on an unsecured network?

Again- I am only trying to answer your questions, not argue about it, OK?

[uhiforgot]

[quote="DAYWALKER"]Aloha coltsguy,

Funny ya bring this up. I just bought a laptop also and it came with that WI-FI thingy in it. As soon as I turned it on, it said I was "connected". Sometimes it was not connected so it asked me to "refresh network connections" or something. Several "hotspots" appeared, some with a lock next to them. Those were secure hotspots and needed a code to use/access. However...

Some were not secure hotspots and my laptop connected automatically. It had a warning prior to connection saying that, "This is an unsecure sight, others may view what you do, yada-yada..."

So...I briefly read what was written here. Uh...so was I in the wrong for using a hotspot? AFAIK, there is no way in heck I could "infiltrate" other computers by doing my own thing. :confused:

Interesting and thanks all you computer smart dudes!!! ]

Chad, let me say this. I haven't read this whole thread, but if you're on a network with your neighbors that's unencrypted, it's very easy for anyone connected (with the right software, of course) to see what you're looking at and what you've typed. I would suggest very seriously that you not do any ordering of knives or banking on ANY wireless network. Encrypted or not, that is information that should NOT be floating about on the open air! I'd suggest plugging into your normal internet cable at home at your desk unless you plan on roaming the house. Best bet is to turn off your wireless when you're plugged into your own internet so as not to confuse your machine or spill out information that you don't want being spilled.

-Jeff

[knightrider]

I have this problem as well. People above me and next store use my signal. The 3 macs I have are on a belkin wireless. I can't figure out how to lock it down. What could I cover the antennas with when I am not using my laptop (no off wireless switch logging into the IP address to the router is confusing to me)., I was thinking about a plastic bowl covered with aluminum foil placed over it - do you guys think that would block the signal?

What I'm most afraid of, and maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, is someone mistaking illegal activity for my account. Lets say they hack people and the police think I did the hacking, or look at inappropriate images of kids or something, could this be pinned on me? That would be scary. I would hope they could identify that it wasn't either of the 3 macs in my house. :eek:

[Senate]

I have this problem as well. People above me and next store use my signal. The 3 macs I have are on a belkin wireless. I can't figure out how to lock it down. What could I cover the antennas with when I am not using my laptop (no off wireless switch logging into the IP address to the router is confusing to me)., I was thinking about a plastic bowl covered with aluminum foil placed over it - do you guys think that would block the signal?

What I'm most afraid of, and maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, is someone mistaking illegal activity for my account. Lets say they hack people and the police think I did the hacking, or look at inappropriate images of kids or something, could this be pinned on me? That would be scary. I would hope they could identify that it wasn't either of the 3 macs in my house. :eek:

it will be more complicated to try to limit the signal outside your home than taking one hour to understand how the router works...
disable SSID braodcast (your network won't be detected anymore by the basic Windows and Mac network detection softwares) and set up MAC address filtering is not that complicated and it should stop most of them from connecting.
the MAC address is the physical address of a network card (wifi or lan), it's (suppose to be :) ) unique for each card, enter the MAC address of each of your computer in the router and only these declared computers will be able to connect.

if you want total security add to that an encryption, WEP or WPA.

[knightrider]

Oh cool. Thanks for the info. That makes a lot more sense than the manual which is hard to figure out. I have been wanting to secure the signal for awhile. :)

[spydermdz]

As I understand it, simply using the wireless signal is perfectly legal.... it's when you crack past thier firewall and get into thier system that you get into trouble. And most wireless systems have very poor security.

It's not such a problem now a days with cable & wireless, since we pay for the speed, not the connection time, and it's hard to secure a wireless broadcast(though it is possible).

others on this thread are being courteous when they say then ask before using a wireless network but the truth of the matter is, it is not illegal, unless you hack behind their firewall or into their encrypted network... THEN you are breaking the law. personally, i think that it is the persons own ignorance that has the network if they dont encrypt it... but thats just me.... i always encrypt my neworks here at the office and at home...

[Senate]

basically the law says this:

A person is guilty of criminal invasion of computer privacy if the person intentionally accesses any computer resource knowing that the person is not authorized to do so

which means secured or not, you can't access someone else's network without his consent...

more here: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/lis/cip/hacklaw.htm