Handles should be designed to 1) keep the fingers and or hand from sliding foreward onto the blade causing severe damage to the owner. In "emergency" situations this happens more than most imagine. 2) the handle should be strong enough for the knives intended purpose, and then some. 3) The handle should be comfortable and ergonomic. If the choil helps accomplish any of these goals then great. If not, it shouldn't be there.
Personally, due to the way my brain functions I would at the very least need to see a diagram, or picture of the intended design, or feel it in my hand. Sorry, I'm not much help here. Joe L.
"Finger" choils
Aloha sal,
I like choils also, I mean, just look at the Lava. :p However...
I do not always use them. For example, on the Native. Guys sometimes freak out or look at me funny when I tell them I rarely use the choil on the Native. :rolleyes: It's an option/feature I like on the Native, so even though I don't always use it, it's good to know "it's there". Same with the Caly' Family, especially the "head honcho" C54!
Even Ed's full size Persian...
God bless you sal, and Happy 4th from Oahu, 1345hrs. :)
I like choils also, I mean, just look at the Lava. :p However...
I do not always use them. For example, on the Native. Guys sometimes freak out or look at me funny when I tell them I rarely use the choil on the Native. :rolleyes: It's an option/feature I like on the Native, so even though I don't always use it, it's good to know "it's there". Same with the Caly' Family, especially the "head honcho" C54!
Even Ed's full size Persian...God bless you sal, and Happy 4th from Oahu, 1345hrs. :)
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
"Where's the best little big knife not designed by Sal or Eric?" ~ thombrogan, WSM
Avatar by my KnifeBrother, DiAlex...C102 Adventura designer, 2005 Spyderco Forum Knife!
"Where's the best little big knife not designed by Sal or Eric?" ~ thombrogan, WSM
Avatar by my KnifeBrother, DiAlex...C102 Adventura designer, 2005 Spyderco Forum Knife!
most definately do i approve of a finger choil on a :spyder: . this is because they are very well executed of course. :cool: they yield better control, balance better in my hand and look better to me. excellent on my grey caly jr, adventura, and kiwi (although i do not own a kiwi yet, but have handled one). handling the manixs' one does feel they are very purposeful as well. how 'bout a slightly more agressive choil on a dragonfly? oh well, i guess that's why there is the navigator, eh? :)
Hmm...
While I like a choil on a knife, I find that they are model-specific. Take the Walker, Zowada, and Centofante models, for example. I don't miss a choil there at all. But, on the knives that have them, I almost always find myself gripping the knife using the choil. I guess if one is there, I'll use it, but it's not something that will prevent me from buying a knife that doesn't have one.
Scott
Scott
2004 VW R32 :cool:
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Joe Talmadge
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I love the finger choil on small knives, that are meant for utility only and not backup defensive use. The finger choil works great on the calypso jr and UKPK for example. Finger choils work great for sabre grip.
On a defensive piece, or a knife that's meant for utility but is beefy enough for defensive use, I dislike the finger choil. I find that in hammer grip -- the only grip I'll use for defensive use -- the finger choil significantly disrupts the security of the grip. On the R2, a hammer grip is very insecure for me. However, the R2 is just about long enough that I can get a hammer grip just on the body of the handle without the choil. It would be wonderful to find a finger choil design that would not disrupt a hammer grip.
In summary, finger choil on small knives, but not on anything big enough for defensive use unless the hammer grip problem is solved.
Joe
On a defensive piece, or a knife that's meant for utility but is beefy enough for defensive use, I dislike the finger choil. I find that in hammer grip -- the only grip I'll use for defensive use -- the finger choil significantly disrupts the security of the grip. On the R2, a hammer grip is very insecure for me. However, the R2 is just about long enough that I can get a hammer grip just on the body of the handle without the choil. It would be wonderful to find a finger choil design that would not disrupt a hammer grip.
In summary, finger choil on small knives, but not on anything big enough for defensive use unless the hammer grip problem is solved.
Joe
Since 'discovering' the finger choil on a Military 440V, I haven't bought a folder without this feature since - including non-Spydercos such as Strider SMF, Buck/Strider Tarani, etc.
The finger choil is an indispensible ergo feature for utility blades in my opinion.
I'd also cast my vote for inclusion of a true choil (the little knick between edge and ricasso) on all plain edge blades, which aids full-edge sharpening/profiling to the base of the edge. Every Spyderco plain edge blade I have has a true ricasso cut with a Dremel cut-off wheel.
The finger choil is an indispensible ergo feature for utility blades in my opinion.
I'd also cast my vote for inclusion of a true choil (the little knick between edge and ricasso) on all plain edge blades, which aids full-edge sharpening/profiling to the base of the edge. Every Spyderco plain edge blade I have has a true ricasso cut with a Dremel cut-off wheel.
I've seen a couple mentions of the choil on the Persian. Maybe Ed will jump on here and correct me, but that seems much more like an aesthetic addition than a safety one. Using that shallow an indentation for finger placement looks like an accident waiting to happen. But, perhaps that is just me. :D
Jack
Jack
I like them especially on the smaller handles. I would never get a good grip on a Caly Jr. without the choil. As a matter of fact, I never got a good grip on the Delica III. On the larger models, such as the Manix, they I like them sometimes but really you get so much control in the regular grip position, that I don't see the need. But I take them anyway. But I definitely like the fully defined one on the Caly Jr. and Manix better than on Mili and Para.
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dialex
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Hello Mr. Glesser, thanks for the topic.
I still remember the debate wheather it is more appropriate to name it "finger choil" or "finger groove", considering the choil is a distinct part of the kinfe. For my part, I preffer to call it "finger choil" too, in order to avoid confusion with the finger grooves you can find on certain handles.
The finger choil on a folder is definitely an interesting and useful feature, but I can't say I like or dislike it. Just like many other small (or bigger) things that make a knife, to appreciate it or not depends eventually on the knife itself. Indeed, the Calypso jr. has the choil. And I can't imagine the Navigator without it either, or the ergonomics would suffer dearly. I guess this applies for most of the "little big knives" (see the Salsa, the Dragonfly even the Cricket has sort of a finger choil).
But the Lil'T doesn't have the choil - and that's the way it should be, if you ask for my oppinion. The Endura / Delica also don't have a choil and they work great (although, to tell the truth, many of us keep the knife like it would have one)
I can't say all folders should have finger choils - just like I can't say all folders shouldn't have them - it all depends on the design. But statistically speaking, more than 70% of the knives I like do have the finger choil.
I still remember the debate wheather it is more appropriate to name it "finger choil" or "finger groove", considering the choil is a distinct part of the kinfe. For my part, I preffer to call it "finger choil" too, in order to avoid confusion with the finger grooves you can find on certain handles.
The finger choil on a folder is definitely an interesting and useful feature, but I can't say I like or dislike it. Just like many other small (or bigger) things that make a knife, to appreciate it or not depends eventually on the knife itself. Indeed, the Calypso jr. has the choil. And I can't imagine the Navigator without it either, or the ergonomics would suffer dearly. I guess this applies for most of the "little big knives" (see the Salsa, the Dragonfly even the Cricket has sort of a finger choil).
But the Lil'T doesn't have the choil - and that's the way it should be, if you ask for my oppinion. The Endura / Delica also don't have a choil and they work great (although, to tell the truth, many of us keep the knife like it would have one)
I can't say all folders should have finger choils - just like I can't say all folders shouldn't have them - it all depends on the design. But statistically speaking, more than 70% of the knives I like do have the finger choil.
The mind commands the body and it obeys. The mind orders itself and meets resistance.
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yablanowitz
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I love the finger choils on the smaller knives. I have mixed feelings on the larger ones. On one hand, it allows you to choke up for fine work, which is cool. On the other hand, I always have a smaller knife on hand for fine work. I carry the larger folder for the extra blade length (additional cutting edge), which the finger choil cuts into a bit. I would just as soon see a guard (a la E4/D4) on the larger (3.5" +) folders rather that a choil. Of course, I don't carry a knife for SD (that is what guns are for :D ) so I can't speak for their usefulness in that regard.
As for true choils, if I had a dollar for every time I have had one hang up when cutting thin materials, I would buy a Manix or two. :rolleyes:
As for true choils, if I had a dollar for every time I have had one hang up when cutting thin materials, I would buy a Manix or two. :rolleyes:
Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
I love the finger choils, but only on a specific range of knives. somewhere between a 2 and 3 inch blade is about perfect for the "50/50" choil. On knives bigger than that you can get a solid four finger grip on the handle alone, and on knives smaller than that, it takes up too much of the cutting surface.
But then again, there's a reason why I'm not paid to design knives :D
I love the finger choils, but only on a specific range of knives. somewhere between a 2 and 3 inch blade is about perfect for the "50/50" choil. On knives bigger than that you can get a solid four finger grip on the handle alone, and on knives smaller than that, it takes up too much of the cutting surface.
But then again, there's a reason why I'm not paid to design knives :D
Sal, I like them alot, for the same reasons you mentioned!!
Ron
Ron
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Shine On...
Shine On...
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jaislandboy
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In general , I prefer finger choils for all the reasons that you have mentioned Mr. Glesser, and I find them especially useful on the Navigator sized series...but on larger knives say Lil Temp and Manix 80mm on up....I guess I could take it/leave it (the "true" finger choil on the tang) because its utility diminishes slightly but truthfully I prefer the "50/50 choil" being there for its enhanced safety feature when closing any sized clipit one-handedly... :rolleyes:
brian
"All paths lead back to the Spyderhole..."
"All paths lead back to the Spyderhole..."
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zenheretic
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I'm more in the Dialex camp on this one...it really depends upon the knife.
The only detail cutting I can recall ever doing was trimming and cutting my medium rare barbecue steak. I've never had a steak knife with a choil, but I've never stopped in a meal and wished I had one. I'm finding the Volpe much more useful for "detail" cuts...at least for me.
I think most defense oriented blades should have a choil...short of a true crossguard or a Persian/Lil Temp groove to prevent me from slicing my fingers. Thankfully a trainer endura taught me I wasn't holding that type of design strongly enough for a stabbing motion.
The only detail cutting I can recall ever doing was trimming and cutting my medium rare barbecue steak. I've never had a steak knife with a choil, but I've never stopped in a meal and wished I had one. I'm finding the Volpe much more useful for "detail" cuts...at least for me.
I think most defense oriented blades should have a choil...short of a true crossguard or a Persian/Lil Temp groove to prevent me from slicing my fingers. Thankfully a trainer endura taught me I wasn't holding that type of design strongly enough for a stabbing motion.
Follow the mushin, but pay it no heed.
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smcfalls13
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Sorry for the late response, I knew this was going to be a long reply, so I needed plenty of time to devote to it:
It depends on the knife for me(not a very helpful answer I know).
It actually depends on whole lot of factors.
If the handle material is slick, like micarta, wood, or stainless steel, than I think a choil is necessary to prevent the hand slipping onto the blade, or the knife slipping out of your hand. It's a security feature.(See the jot Sing Khalsa, Adventura, SS Kiwi, or Navigator II for an example of this)
If the handle is relatively small, a choil is a good way to make the handle "feel" larger than it really is, like on the Little Big Knives.(See thr Caly Jr, Blackhawk, Native, and the Kiwi and Nav II again as examples)
Depending on what part of the knife's blade is used the most often, a choil can be beneficial. The Ocelot is designed as a skinning blade, so a choil is good to allow choking up for more control on the blade.
On larger knives, I don't think choils are necessary. The Manix has such a large blade, that choking up on it really doesn't provide all that much control(in my opinion)
It also depends a lot on what kind of cuts the blade is used for, and what part of the blade is used the most. For Hawkbills, I have no need for a choil, because I only use the tip most days. I keep my thumb on top of the blade, and apply just enough pressure to cut cardboard, and than pull to slice the cardboard. A choil would only help me if I had to exert significant effort on the pull cut. If I were cutting heavy cardboard(industrial stuff) than I'd want some kind of choil, for a more secure grip.
But for a different blade shape, like the Spearpoint Native, I find a choil much more beneficial when precision control of the tip is required.
If I'm using the part of the blade closest to the handle, a choil just gets in the way, because my fingers will get in the way of what I'm cutting.
It depends on so many things it's hard to give a YES or NO to whether I like them. So far Spyderco has done a good job of using choils where they're appropriate.
It depends on the knife for me(not a very helpful answer I know).
It actually depends on whole lot of factors.
If the handle material is slick, like micarta, wood, or stainless steel, than I think a choil is necessary to prevent the hand slipping onto the blade, or the knife slipping out of your hand. It's a security feature.(See the jot Sing Khalsa, Adventura, SS Kiwi, or Navigator II for an example of this)
If the handle is relatively small, a choil is a good way to make the handle "feel" larger than it really is, like on the Little Big Knives.(See thr Caly Jr, Blackhawk, Native, and the Kiwi and Nav II again as examples)
Depending on what part of the knife's blade is used the most often, a choil can be beneficial. The Ocelot is designed as a skinning blade, so a choil is good to allow choking up for more control on the blade.
On larger knives, I don't think choils are necessary. The Manix has such a large blade, that choking up on it really doesn't provide all that much control(in my opinion)
It also depends a lot on what kind of cuts the blade is used for, and what part of the blade is used the most. For Hawkbills, I have no need for a choil, because I only use the tip most days. I keep my thumb on top of the blade, and apply just enough pressure to cut cardboard, and than pull to slice the cardboard. A choil would only help me if I had to exert significant effort on the pull cut. If I were cutting heavy cardboard(industrial stuff) than I'd want some kind of choil, for a more secure grip.
But for a different blade shape, like the Spearpoint Native, I find a choil much more beneficial when precision control of the tip is required.
If I'm using the part of the blade closest to the handle, a choil just gets in the way, because my fingers will get in the way of what I'm cutting.
It depends on so many things it's hard to give a YES or NO to whether I like them. So far Spyderco has done a good job of using choils where they're appropriate.
:spyder: Scott :spyder:
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
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"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
-Sir Winston Churchill-
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spydutch
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I like them a lot :)
If it weren't for the choils a lot of the medium sized Spydies would feel very uncomfortable in my big hands f.e.
Little Persian
Native
Calypso Jr
Para Military
On these knives I HAVE to use the choil to get a good grip on the knife
If it weren't for the choils a lot of the medium sized Spydies would feel very uncomfortable in my big hands f.e.
Little Persian
Native
Calypso Jr
Para Military
On these knives I HAVE to use the choil to get a good grip on the knife
Arend(old school Spydie lover)
MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER OF THE SPYDEREDGE!!!
VERY PROUD OWNER OF A CALY III/SE #043 :D
....AND A FG(PARA) MILITARY/SE IN CPMD2(thanx Sal)
...I would love to have one in full SpyderEdge:p
MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER OF THE SPYDEREDGE!!!
VERY PROUD OWNER OF A CALY III/SE #043 :D
....AND A FG(PARA) MILITARY/SE IN CPMD2(thanx Sal)
...I would love to have one in full SpyderEdge:p
[quote="smcfalls13"]Sorry for the late response, I knew this was going to be a long reply, so I needed plenty of time to devote to it:
On larger knives, I don't think choils are necessary. The Manix has such a large blade, that choking up on it really doesn't provide all that much control(in my opinion)
I own a manix, It has grippy g-10 slabs and a choil, a perfect combination that has my preference. The choil gives benificial controle over detailed cutting tasks. I also think the manix model outline is suited for a choil. There are not only small knives with choils, a lot of big hunting knives that have choils as well. So adding a choil to the manix will lessen edge length, but will enhance perfomance wise ergonomics, safety, and cutting behaviour.
For instance if you'll have a machette a choil is not needed because, you wont be doing any detailed cutting with this type of knife.
btw. A choil on the manix looks good to.
On larger knives, I don't think choils are necessary. The Manix has such a large blade, that choking up on it really doesn't provide all that much control(in my opinion)
I own a manix, It has grippy g-10 slabs and a choil, a perfect combination that has my preference. The choil gives benificial controle over detailed cutting tasks. I also think the manix model outline is suited for a choil. There are not only small knives with choils, a lot of big hunting knives that have choils as well. So adding a choil to the manix will lessen edge length, but will enhance perfomance wise ergonomics, safety, and cutting behaviour.
For instance if you'll have a machette a choil is not needed because, you wont be doing any detailed cutting with this type of knife.
btw. A choil on the manix looks good to.
Bonsoir Nemo,Nemo3000 wrote:Bonsoir Sal,
you know how much I am sucker for all your finger choils !
Now please tell me why I feel so confy with your old Jess Horn design ?
Is this a mystery or I'm getting older ?! :rolleyes:
IMHO the only downthing about finger choil could be the Edge/handle ratio...
Cheers
Nemo
Thanx much for taking such good care of my crew while they were in Paris. Much appreciated. You build good memories.
Regarding the Hess Horn, Jess a a brilliant designer and knifemaker of ledgendary status. It is expected that his designs would be exceptional.
Also, I think you're getting older
sal
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druid
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sorry I haven't come a time to read through all the previous post.but my experiences are when a finger choil is necessary and it is not always necessary.I prefer a shallow and some what wide indentation for example I prefer the Calypso style to the native style. I find once I've gotten used to this feature, knives like the Delica seem to be missing something, hint..hint..the downside of the choil in my opinion it negatively affect cutting edge versus blade length as far as the laws concerned.strict interpretation only I believe. It seems as though the choil has become a primary selling future. Something like cup holders in SUVs
upon reading some posts, I must agree that without the choils many models having this feature would be three finger purchase only.
just a thought, but what about rounding the edges on some of the choils like on the native and Dodo in both cases choil seems necessary to proper grip preposition and doing so should not have any negative effects I can see.
upon reading some posts, I must agree that without the choils many models having this feature would be three finger purchase only.
just a thought, but what about rounding the edges on some of the choils like on the native and Dodo in both cases choil seems necessary to proper grip preposition and doing so should not have any negative effects I can see.
why
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