Ex-Marine uses pocket knife to fend off attackers with guns

[peacefuljeffrey]

Hey, we're square, don't worry. :)

-Jeffrey

[Chucula]

i based my statements from what i learned in a college introductory course in psychology. People are not evil; they are capable of evil and good. We think differently in a group than we do by ourselves--there is a diffusion of responsibility. There are so many factors that it is ridiculous to say "they are evil" because that is not how it works (at least, not in science). I can assure it's not simply a good or evil situation.

"These people might have been able to be rehabilitated and turned into 'productive members of society.'"

Generally that may be BS, but that doesnt mean it never happens. Check out Scared Straight, a documentary about juvenile delinquets who were rehabilitated by inmates at a local prison.

[ghostrider]

[quote="Chucula"]i based my statements from what i learned in a college introductory course in psychology. People are not evil]I sort of figured that's where you got it from, and that's the problem with much of the schooling today. Of course some people are evil. That isn't to say they are born that way, but that that is the path they choose, and therefore they are evil. The idea that: "People aren't evil just because they choose to do evil" is just a bunch of psychobabble mish-mash. If a person chooses to do evil, then they are evil because of the choices they make.

Just because a person does good doesn’t mean they aren’t evil. Hitler commissioned Professor Porsche to design the Beetle (which could be considered good), but he was still evil.

[Chucula]

I sort of figured that's where you got it from, and that's the problem with much of the schooling today. Of course some people are evil. That isn't to say they are born that way, but that that is the path they choose, and therefore they are evil. The idea that: "People aren't evil just because they choose to do evil" is just a bunch of psychobabble mish-mash. If a person chooses to do evil, then they are evil because of the choices they make.

Just because a person does good doesn’t mean they aren’t evil. Hitler commissioned Professor Porsche to design the Beetle (which could be considered good), but he was still evil.

The problem with schooling today is that a vast majority of kids dont care, but that is a different argument. :D

True, there are some people that are sadistic (which is fundamentally wrong), but how do you know what is evil or not? In many cases, it will change depending on what perspective you choose.

"People aren't evil just because they choose to do evil"

That is a true statement. What if youre family is starving and you decide to steal some bread for your kids. Does that make you evil?

Learn some psychology if you are going to use words like psychobabble. Everything we learned in that psychology course maintained the fact that people are affected (driven to good or evil) by so many external and internal forces that it is impossible to say what exactly is to blame. It is just too complicated.

[ghostrider]

True, there are some people that are sadistic (which is fundamentally wrong), but how do you know what is evil or not?

Because they choose to behave in such a manner.

In many cases, it will change depending on what perspective you choose.

That’s called “moral relativism”, and it’s also a bunch of nonsense that removes the responsibility from the individual.

That is a true statement. What if youre family is starving and you decide to steal some bread for your kids. Does that make you evil?

My father was in that situation, and he never resorted to stealing. He found other means. This is just more Moral Relativism.

Learn some psychology if you are going to use words like psychobabble.

Don’t assume that I haven’t studied the subject. When you spend a few years out in the “real world” (as opposed to school) you’ll discover that some of the stuff they teach you is agenda driven nonsense. You'll also discover that some people are evil. It's the only conclusion you can come to after trying to apply all that psychology they teach you that doesn't work.

Everything we learned in that psychology course maintained the fact that people are affected (driven to good or evil) by so many external and internal forces that it is impossible to say what exactly is to blame. It is just too complicated.

That is true. However, in the end, they still make a choice to do good or evil, and that choice is what makes them good or evil.

Your hypothetical about the father stealing to feed his kids would be a good one, yet it leaves out many other things like the choices he made up to that point. I’ve met people who are in situations like that, and most times it’s pride that prevents them from getting the help they need. They’ll have all kinds of excuses of why they can’t go to the shelter, or the food pantry. It’s much easier to steal or panhandle it off the street than go to any of the places set up for just such a problem. For the sake of argument, I’ll place that situation in our own country, and say it’s a father who has starving children. Truth is that there are always church’s, shelter, and other charities that would help. This is one of the most generous countries in the world.

[Chucula]

I'll try to wrap it up, as I feel we (or I) are not making progress. You bring up choice as the determining factor in good or evil. My point is that while people appear to make a choice, other factors are making the choice for them. Lack of experience/knowledge and many forms of pressure, fear, chemicals in their brains, etc can cause someone to do something evil or make the wrong decision. That doesnt make the person evil. I dont see how you can simply say if someone chooses evil, they are evil.

Moral relativism doesnt lift blame; it explains the contradiction between your good and my good. If you think there is a universal morality, I agree with you. However, i dont think it is attainable by people of today as people are not absolute good or evil as you seem to believe.

Not to pic on you Count

No worries, I'm used to this kind of picking from school :D . Sorry for the following statement coming out rude:

Learn some psychology if you are going to use words like psychobabble.

I preview and edit these so many times before i post that i eventually get impatient and it comes out in the post.

[ghostrider]

I'll try to wrap it up, as I feel we (or I) are not making progress. You bring up choice as the determining factor in good or evil. My point is that while people appear to make a choice, other factors are making the choice for them.

Factors don’t make peoples choices for them. In the end, it’s the individual who makes that choice. There may be factors that appear to limit those choices, but the choice is still up to the individual.

Lack of experience/knowledge and many forms of pressure, fear, chemicals in their brains, etc can cause someone to do something evil or make the wrong decision. That doesnt make the person evil. I dont see how you can simply say if someone chooses evil, they are evil.

I’ll agree that there could be certain factors that prevent people from making good choices. A good example of someone who doesn’t have the mental capacity to make such choices would be a person who has the mental capabilities of a small child. However, most people do know the difference between good and evil, the direction they choose is up to them.

Moral relativism doesnt lift blame] With all due respect, this is just relativism being used to explain away relativism. Good is Good. If one of our versions of good contradicts the other, then either one, or both of us are wrong.

If you think there is a universal morality, I agree with you. However, i dont think it is attainable by people of today as people are not absolute good or evil as you seem to believe.

Charles Manson was evil, as was Hitler, Stalin, and countless others. Your assertion is incorrect. Not everything they teach in shcool is accurate or correct.

No worries, I'm used to this kind of picking from school :D . Sorry for the following statement coming out rude:

I preview and edit these so many times before i post that i eventually get impatient and it comes out in the post.

I didn't take it as rude, but your tone is condescending. I understand about "preview and edit so many times" as I also do so. No hard feelings. Like I said, once you live long enough, or experience enough, you'll understand that some people are evil.Eddited to add: Then again, you may never experience enough to understand this, but that doesn't mean that people can't be evil. :)

[tonydahose]

two words. GOOD RIDDANCE

[Chucula]

agree to disagree. Once again i would encourage you to look at some psychology if you care to better understand my points. I am interested in your source--is it your own experience? Opinion?

my assertion for absolute good was just that, not my school's.

i would be interested in some other opinions or comments, as i wonder if what i said in my posts makes sense.

If there is evil, there must be good to define or distinguish evil. But nobody is perfect, so nobody can be truly good (dont get caught up in semantics, just follow). So we are just different levels of evil.

i cant let go :rolleyes:

ok this will be my last post...but this is not defeat

[Cameron23]

Oh man...Sophomore Psyc. is rearing its ugly head.

Societal influences and socio-economic backgrounds be what they may: Decisions are decisions and there are consequences. In this case the consequences were that a 17 year old girl got stabbed in the chest and died, and at least one other teen is still hospitalized. They made poor decisions that didn't take into account others in society (beyond making them targets) and they paid a penalty.

Regarding the "evil" aspect: Personally I believe there are "evil" individuals in the world, those that operate without regard to others and that take pleasure in depriving others of their possesions, their security, their lives. The vast majority of those who commit crimes are not "evil" and neither are their acts...most of us would steal if hungry, etc., etc. I, however, also believe that there is "Evil" in the world, with a capitol "E."

This crime (with the details given) doesn't seem to fall into the evil category. It falls into predator/prey...and the predators picked a prey that was stronger than they thought and they paid the price. The only individual I have sympathy for is the Marine (there are no "former" Marines) who had to take a young woman's life, it may cause him grief it may not.

I feel some sympathy for the families/friends of the person killed, but only because they are experiencing grief. But even that is tempered by the knowledge that they were most likely contributing factors to the lifestyle that lead to her death.

In my mind, she was part of a group that had the intent to cause great bodily harm or death to their intended victim. The ones who lived should be happy that the Marine wasn't carrying a firearm as he would have been legally and morally justified to shoot each one of them, group dynamics and mob-mentalities be damned.

Using "good to define or distinguish evil" is fine, having one's own opinion is fine, posting messages in a condescending tone is fine, but posting on subjects about which one has only academic knowledge leaves a little to be desired. Unless, of course, you have first-hand experience with truly heinous acts, in which case I find it surprising that you have the stance that you do (unless you just like playing Devil's Advocate...a favorite of mine).

One doesn't have to serve in a foreign country to experience evil or Evil. Just do some ride alongs with a police or fire department. Once you see a couple of young children beaten to death by their parents or any of the multitude of images that are still stuck in my head from my former work environment, you may have a different perspective...you may not.

Your posts make sense from a strictly academic viewpoint (I used to have similar views and like to take similar stances when I attended and worked for UC Davis) but they have very little application when someone is attacking you, a loved one, or just some poor sap you happen across.

C :spyder:

[peacefuljeffrey]

Generally that may be BS, but that doesnt mean it never happens. Check out Scared Straight, a documentary about juvenile delinquets who were rehabilitated by inmates at a local prison.

I don't trust people who behave because they fear punishment. I trust people who behave because they believe in being good people.

If someone told those juvenile delinquents that there would be no prisons, no judges, no punishment, would they have been scared straight?

Religion presents the same issues for me.

-Jeffrey

[Dr. Snubnose]

i based my statements from what i learned in a college introductory course in psychology. People are not evil]Scared Straight[/U], a documentary about juvenile delinquets who were rehabilitated by inmates at a local prison.

Chucula: The Documentary 'Scared Straight' had nothing to do with delinquents being rehabilitated by inmates...yes some juveniles where scare straight by seeing what it might be like to spend time behind bars...but that's not any form of serious rehab....I would venture to guess that most of the juveniles presented in that documentary by this time...have done time....Doc

[peacefuljeffrey]

True, there are some people that are sadistic (which is fundamentally wrong), but how do you know what is evil or not? In many cases, it will change depending on what perspective you choose.

Harming others is not subjectively wrong, it is objectively wrong. (substitute "evil" for "wrong" if you like)

That is a true statement. What if youre family is starving and you decide to steal some bread for your kids. Does that make you evil?

The act of acquiring things can be a lot more of a gray area than the act of taking it by force and harming others.

Learn some psychology if you are going to use words like psychobabble.

Why, is psychobabble a psychological term reserved for use by PhDs? :rolleyes:

-Jeffrey

[stonyman]

I for one want to commend that former Marine for doing what he had to do to stay alive and make it home for late night supper. I do not want to get into this paralysis of analysis attitude. This man was face with a situation and acted swiftly and decisively. Whatever all of the variables surrounding what could have happened or what did not happen is irrelevant. Murphy's law works both ways. There are no guarantees, but good things tend to happen to those who counter their attackers with superior viciousness. Given the same situation I do not see me acting any differently either. Thank God for sparing this warriors life! Take care all of you.

[Jordan]

"There are four kinds of Homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable, and praiseworthy."

-Ambrose Bierce

[Rebeltruce]

I agree with Jeffrey.....the only sad thing about this situation is someone innocent was threathen with death and possible injury....Clear case of Self-Defense here....I would have acted in the same way as this young ex-marine.....glad his previous training kicked in and he was able to escape major injury and come out of this tragedy alive...some people are not as fortunate when dealing with similiar situations.......Doc :D

There is no such thing as "an ex-marine" or a "former marine". Once a Marine always a Marine, it isn't something that you can ever turn completely off.

Just an FYI.......

These thugs got exactly what they deserved.

[Dr. Snubnose]

[quote="Rebeltruce"]There is no such thing as "an ex-marine" or a "former marine". Once a Marine always a Marine, it isn't something that you can ever turn completely off.

Just an FYI....... ]

Rebeltruce: I catch your drift....however this marine was not on active duty....that being said, please excuse the "ex" Doc :D

[BlackNinja]

Chucula, I'm with you, all the way!