Great thread, I don't bushcraft or craft bushes, but a highly interesting read! And some good news about upcoming fixed blades. :D
Wouter
Spyderco Bushcraft Knife
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SeanH
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Re the NASA edition edge.
Does anyone have any thoughts on a convex edge?
By all accounts they are more durable and maintain an edge longer.
By all accounts they are more durable and maintain an edge longer.
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SeanH
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Re the NASA edition steel.
What about ZDP-189?
Aside from the solid verses laminate question, how does it hold up against chopping (micro chipping) and prying with the tip?
Is ZPD necessarily more brittle because it is harder?
Aside from the solid verses laminate question, how does it hold up against chopping (micro chipping) and prying with the tip?
Is ZPD necessarily more brittle because it is harder?
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Joe Talmadge
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I like both convex and full flat grinds better than scandanavian grinds for an all-around camp knife. The advantage of full flat over convex is that for food prep, full flat works better, and you don't have to sacrifice that much on woodworking. Again, it goes towards who you're pitching this at; as already stated, I think some of the bushcraft crowd sacrifices everything for woodwork performance, whereas others like an all-arounder or something in between.SeanH wrote:Does anyone have any thoughts on a convex edge?
By all accounts they are more durable and maintain an edge longer.
I think lamination is a horrendous idea and might kill the deal for me ... this knife needs to be strong for prying, splitting, batoning through rough spots, and lamination makes blades weak (tough, but weak), exactly the opposite of what you want. Don't try to force-fit a blade steel that isn't tough enough for this role by slapping some softer weaker steel on the sides; instead, use the right steel in the first place and make it strong throughout.
All just MHO of course
I think that a real deal Woodlore/Ray Mears collaboration is the way to go. 52100 would be OK, but I would personally prefer S30V, VG10…laminated ZDP189 might be interesting also… Stabilized wood scales for the traditional version and blaze orange FRN for the high tech NASA.
For a different brush craft inspired design, I think I would like something with more substantial integral guard, 4 mm stock, 100 mm long, handle dropped slightly form the blade for better ergos and the tang skeletonized for a balance point just behind the guard.
- Frank
For a different brush craft inspired design, I think I would like something with more substantial integral guard, 4 mm stock, 100 mm long, handle dropped slightly form the blade for better ergos and the tang skeletonized for a balance point just behind the guard.
- Frank
Peter who owns Fallkniven said that the F1 was nearly 25% stronger when then changed it to the laminated type rather then the solid VG10 blade. I'm sure if a laminated blade wasn't up to teh strength needed for bushcraft tasks then it wouldn't be so popular (it is very popular with the UK bunch anyway)Joe Talmadge wrote: I think lamination is a horrendous idea and might kill the deal for me ... this knife needs to be strong for prying, splitting, batoning through rough spots, and lamination makes blades weak (tough, but weak),
All just MHO of course
Blade grind is still a big question for which I am open to any and all opinions.
Scandi
Full flat
Hamaguri (convex)
I probably won't do an orange handle....sorry. I think sales would better support something not so bright. I mean, if it was reallyt hot and requested by the market, then we would certainly provide orange, but that remains to be seen.
My thoughts on the "NASA" version would be something like; full flat S90V, formed Carbon Fiber handles, Boltaron (hi-line Kydex) sheath.
My current thought is to provide a small portable sharpener.
sal
Scandi
Full flat
Hamaguri (convex)
I probably won't do an orange handle....sorry. I think sales would better support something not so bright. I mean, if it was reallyt hot and requested by the market, then we would certainly provide orange, but that remains to be seen.
My thoughts on the "NASA" version would be something like; full flat S90V, formed Carbon Fiber handles, Boltaron (hi-line Kydex) sheath.
My current thought is to provide a small portable sharpener.
sal
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Spydieopath
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Nasa
I’d be all over a NASA version for a fixed blade for my wilderness trips. I’m not into “bushcraft” but a light and strong fixed blade would be welcome. I could leave this C.Reeve Mountaineer at home.
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Joe Talmadge
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Andy, I don't think it's possible to attach soft weak sides to a strong core, and end up with something stronger than the same piece which is made monolithically strong all the way through. That is, physically not possible, IMO. However, people use "strength" in weird ways: I do believe that the laminated version will be more ductile (probably what he means) and tougher, and maybe that's more important than strength.Andy_L wrote:Peter who owns Fallkniven said that the F1 was nearly 25% stronger when then changed it to the laminated type rather then the solid VG10 blade. I'm sure if a laminated blade wasn't up to teh strength needed for bushcraft tasks then it wouldn't be so popular (it is very popular with the UK bunch anyway)
'course, I have this vision in my head that a skilled bushcrafter picks the best piece of wood, find the split line with smooth grain and no knots, batons the knife in perfectly, then drives in the wedge that he cleverly carved beforehand to finish the split. I end up with mediocre wood, and keep trying to split the thing apart as I baton it, then realize I forgot to carve a wedge as I get my knife stuck and have to torque it out. I'm exaggerating, but it's definitely true that a skilled user will put less stress on a knife than a less-skilled user.
In the end, if it holds up to good but not expert using it, then that is the ultimate measure and I'm happy with it. Just make sure that it holds up to someone who is a little less precise.
Joe
I think tougher may be more important then strength. Poor baton use may put a stress on the blade and soething which can cope with bending slightly and spring back might survive better then something which is very strong but requires a precise force acting on it.
The main thing is the F1 is VG10 laminated between 420j2 and it works there and some people have thinned the edge down as it's a bit thick for wood carving. I'm not sure just how much difference it would make but it will make a scandi grind easier to sharpen as most of the steel being removed would be the 420 or whatever rather then VG10 (for example).
The main thing is the F1 is VG10 laminated between 420j2 and it works there and some people have thinned the edge down as it's a bit thick for wood carving. I'm not sure just how much difference it would make but it will make a scandi grind easier to sharpen as most of the steel being removed would be the 420 or whatever rather then VG10 (for example).
I have a solid VG10 F1 and I like it a lot. It is my main winter survival knife when I don't want to carry a larger knife (rubber handle makes a difference when it is really cold). When the laminated ones came out I wondered how increased "strength" was tested, and why it would even be needed ? We all want "strong" blades, but the F1 never was a flimsy blade, at least for most conceivable "bushcraft" uses, if not all survival applications (prying your way out of a crashed airplane ?)Joe Talmadge wrote:Andy, I don't think it's possible to attach soft weak sides to a strong core, and end up with something stronger than the same piece which is made monolithically strong all the way through. That is, physically not possible, IMO. However, people use "strength" in weird ways: I do believe that the laminated version will be more ductile (probably what he means) and tougher, and maybe that's more important than strength.
...
Joe
I'm very excited about the prospect of all of the upcoming spyderco fixed blades - the bushcraft + the big Schempp knife will be a great combo.
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Joe Talmadge
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I emphasize strength because I like to be able to crank on the knife, but obviously there's an important balance, because the knife needs to be able to take significant impact on the spine, and the edge needs to hold up even at very small edge angles. Maybe I'll lighten up on my reaction to laminates, other than to say that the knife needs to be able to be cranked good and hard without bending or delaminating. I've played with laminates that just plain seem too weak, but maybe Fallkniven figured it out.Andy_L wrote:I think tougher may be more important then strength. Poor baton use may put a stress on the blade and soething which can cope with bending slightly and spring back might survive better then something which is very strong but requires a precise force acting on it.
The main thing is the F1 is VG10 laminated between 420j2 and it works there and some people have thinned the edge down as it's a bit thick for wood carving. I'm not sure just how much difference it would make but it will make a scandi grind easier to sharpen as most of the steel being removed would be the 420 or whatever rather then VG10 (for example).
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Joe Talmadge
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Ya, I do think strength is important, but I'm certain they're using strength in the non-standard way. You're not going to end up with a stronger piece by removing some of the strong parts and replacing them with weak parts. But toughness and ductility, those things will improve, and it's easier to just call those things "strength" also. And if there were problems with the unlaminated knives chipping, cracking, etc., then maybe it was worth giving up a little strength to laminate it and improve toughness & ductility.dogrunner wrote:I have a solid VG10 F1 and I like it a lot. It is my main winter survival knife when I don't want to carry a larger knife (rubber handle makes a difference when it is really cold). When the laminated ones came out I wondered how increased "strength" was tested, and why it would even be needed ? We all want "strong" blades, but the F1 never was a flimsy blade, at least for most conceivable "bushcraft" uses, if not all survival applications (prying your way out of a crashed airplane ?)
Got to agree with Joe on this one. Laminated knives can and do delaminate under normal use. Admittedly, it's rare, but it causes be to question the wisdom of using a laminated blade in a bushcraft knife, because of the battoning. This one is a Helle and the picture was posted by a bushcrafter on BB (Toddy). I cant remember the exact circumstances she was using the knife, possibly battoning, but she wasnt abusing it (unless you call battoning abuse).
Sal: I'll buy both versions and the long wait is ok....The Ocelot was certainly worth it.
As for the traditional design I'd certainly make a pitch for 52100 and a scandi grind. Keep the blade thin at .100-.125. I am a student of Kochanski and have been playing with sticks for a long time. For dedicated wood carving the scandi-grind can't be beat IMO. I have been making scandi knives lately using blades from the various scandi traditions, from the Sammi secondary bevel of North of the tree line to the simple one bevel designs from the heavier forests of the South.
Wood working is what you need to do to make shelters and traps and other bush living aids and that's why the one bevel design would be my choice.
The Saami secondary bevels are better for caribou skinning but not nearly as easy to use for wood carving. The one bevel knives are great for acting like a plane for wood smoothing and a secondary bevel even if very sloped tends to dig in and doesn't allow the rest of the blade to be used as a guide along the wood.
The one bevel design can be stretched to use for food prep and butchering and rather than oiling allowing a nice grey patina to form on 52100 protects the blade from rust in all but terrible conditions.
As for handle you need to use curly birch to really capture the traditional feel.
The NASA version in a full flat grind with microbevel would make a great companion knife to the traditional model and be used for dedicated food prep and butchering.
The sheaths have to be capable of around the neck carry!
As for marketing....Mors Kochanski is 65, has slowed down a tiny bit and I bet would be interested in aiding the design..... I think it might aid sales and help the design to get him involved. Watching him carve wood and talk about knife design leads me to think he could really aid the design team and give insights in what a bush knife needs. The Kochanski, Spyderco bush knive has a nice ring to it.
Sal if you are interested PM me and I'll give you contact info for Mors.
As for the traditional design I'd certainly make a pitch for 52100 and a scandi grind. Keep the blade thin at .100-.125. I am a student of Kochanski and have been playing with sticks for a long time. For dedicated wood carving the scandi-grind can't be beat IMO. I have been making scandi knives lately using blades from the various scandi traditions, from the Sammi secondary bevel of North of the tree line to the simple one bevel designs from the heavier forests of the South.
Wood working is what you need to do to make shelters and traps and other bush living aids and that's why the one bevel design would be my choice.
The Saami secondary bevels are better for caribou skinning but not nearly as easy to use for wood carving. The one bevel knives are great for acting like a plane for wood smoothing and a secondary bevel even if very sloped tends to dig in and doesn't allow the rest of the blade to be used as a guide along the wood.
The one bevel design can be stretched to use for food prep and butchering and rather than oiling allowing a nice grey patina to form on 52100 protects the blade from rust in all but terrible conditions.
As for handle you need to use curly birch to really capture the traditional feel.
The NASA version in a full flat grind with microbevel would make a great companion knife to the traditional model and be used for dedicated food prep and butchering.
The sheaths have to be capable of around the neck carry!
As for marketing....Mors Kochanski is 65, has slowed down a tiny bit and I bet would be interested in aiding the design..... I think it might aid sales and help the design to get him involved. Watching him carve wood and talk about knife design leads me to think he could really aid the design team and give insights in what a bush knife needs. The Kochanski, Spyderco bush knive has a nice ring to it.
Sal if you are interested PM me and I'll give you contact info for Mors.
Piet: Neck carry is just very handy once you get use to it. Easier to sheath and unsheath and when working building something in the woods you really want to train yourself to sheath your knife rather than lay it down.
If you lay it down you can:
1) Forget it
2) Lose it
3) Stab yourself with it
If the knife is light enough neck carry is the way to go but make sure that your neck rope includes a break away section so you can't strangle yourself in a fall.
:eek:
If you lay it down you can:
1) Forget it
2) Lose it
3) Stab yourself with it
If the knife is light enough neck carry is the way to go but make sure that your neck rope includes a break away section so you can't strangle yourself in a fall.
:eek: