BRAM,
great to see you are back in action on the forums<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>You were sorely missed for awile there.
First off, yes I know this question has been asked many times before (well on other forums anyway) and will be asked many more times in the future.
Just wanted to get your opinion, Sal's, and hopefully even Massad Ayoob's, opinion on using the reverse grip for self defense?
I recently eliminated saber grip because of concerns about weapon retention. Ever since reading a Bob Kasper article in Tactical Knives and doing my own research. Willing to trade some accuracy and flexibiilty for grip strength.
So now I am down to just hammer grip and reverse grip. While I practice both equally I find I really prefer the reverse more, especially when using a smaller sized blade(5 inch or less).
I find the reverse grip flows better doing the figure 8-pattern, and going from slashing to thrusting. Also the increased leverage which allows for more powerful thrusting, makes me feel more confident that if I were in a really high pressure situation
that it would have greater effect.
However if I had to use my Spyderco Harpy in
self defense, I would prefer hammer grip. As the leverage of the weapon or tool has changed I would want to change with it. In addition with a hooked blade you can cut very effectively at full extension, giving you greater reach.
Also I took some lessons in a blend of Fillipino MA's, from Al Mclucky of Ft. Wayne IN. He said he was taught that forward grip was best offense and long range and reverse for defense and close range. BTW have you ever met him? He is the best stand-up instructor I have studied under, after a long list of clunkers:<
Well to sum this up BRAM, Sal, Massad what are your thoughts on leverage, forward or hammer vs reverse grip, using the right tool for the right job or application, etc...
BTW my name on another board is Weapon_X_711 , thanks Bram.
Troy
Reverse and other Grip questions
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Scorpius711
- Member
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: South Bend, Indiana USA
I'm not Bram but I think I know what he will tell you about grip because it's a pretty hard and fast rule. Range determines grip. Reverse grip is for close range, forward grip is for longer range.
I think I can also safely say that JAK would tell you not to abandon saber grip for long range considerations. It has a lot of advantages; yes he also advocates the other grips in their place.
Again I am not Bram or JAK, but I belive I speak the truth here. Fighting men have used saber, reverse, and hammer grip for literally thousands of years. There is a reason they are still around, for given situations they all have their advantages. My apologies if I have spoken out of turn, hopefully you will hear "from the horse's mouth".
Greg R. Beeman Si Vis Pacern Parabellum Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
I think I can also safely say that JAK would tell you not to abandon saber grip for long range considerations. It has a lot of advantages; yes he also advocates the other grips in their place.
Again I am not Bram or JAK, but I belive I speak the truth here. Fighting men have used saber, reverse, and hammer grip for literally thousands of years. There is a reason they are still around, for given situations they all have their advantages. My apologies if I have spoken out of turn, hopefully you will hear "from the horse's mouth".
Greg R. Beeman Si Vis Pacern Parabellum Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
Greg..good response..
Troy..everyone has a way about grips.. I really do feel as Greg stated..range determines grip not personal preference...
so close range reverse, long range forward..
Filipino grip ( knife tucked into ball of hand, first finger & thumb loose..) Sabre grip etc..all have their place..
yes.. I understand where Bob Kasper is coming from..and if its his truth thats OK..
truth is mutable..it changes for all of us..
Bob is not wrong and the rest of us correct nor vice versa..
as for using a hooked blade in reverse..well thats just like a Kerambit...meaning yes it works fine..why would it only work in forward grip and not in reverse???ROFL....
I wouldn't tip rip with it...I wouldn't thrust with it...but forward or revrese I'd use a Civilian, Harpy..Matriarch...
they're very happy cutting either way...
soooo have a great day cutting..don't get too hung up on grips..
Professor Presas used to tell us to hold it as if our lives depended on it...
good advice!!!!
Troy..everyone has a way about grips.. I really do feel as Greg stated..range determines grip not personal preference...
so close range reverse, long range forward..
Filipino grip ( knife tucked into ball of hand, first finger & thumb loose..) Sabre grip etc..all have their place..
yes.. I understand where Bob Kasper is coming from..and if its his truth thats OK..
truth is mutable..it changes for all of us..
Bob is not wrong and the rest of us correct nor vice versa..
as for using a hooked blade in reverse..well thats just like a Kerambit...meaning yes it works fine..why would it only work in forward grip and not in reverse???ROFL....
I wouldn't tip rip with it...I wouldn't thrust with it...but forward or revrese I'd use a Civilian, Harpy..Matriarch...
they're very happy cutting either way...
soooo have a great day cutting..don't get too hung up on grips..
Professor Presas used to tell us to hold it as if our lives depended on it...
good advice!!!!
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Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3029
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
I've taken a bit of flak over the years for advocating what I call the Filipino Grip - grip strength focused on the last three fingers of the hand (middle, ring, and pinky) and thumb on the back of the blade. This is what many experienced Filipino martial artists use and is also often found in Japanese tantojutsu. Although I still believe in this grip, rather than arguing, I now teach that you can grip a knife any way you want to as long as your chosen grip accomplishes 3 things:
1) You must be able to hang on to your knife.
2) You must be able to cut and thrust accurately and effectively.
3) You must be able to count to five on the fingers of your knife hand when you're done (provided that's what you started with).
The last point refers tomanaging impact shock, an often ignored aspect of knife use. If you can take a TRAINING knife and thrust it full force into a tree or telephone pole without losing grip integrity, you're doing something right and your chosen grip should be up to the task. If you end up holding more blade than handle, it's time to reevaluate your grip.
With all that said, I feel that reverse grip is best up close and therefore works best for people who train to be comfortable operating at close range. Reverse grip also lends itself well to developing improvised weapon skills, since skill transfer to non-edged objects like pens and flashlights is pretty straight forward. Finally, it allows a more effective response to surprise attacks from the flanks and rear than a standard grip. For stick players, reverse grip training is also a great way of improving your punyo (butt of the stick) skills.
Hope this helps.
mike j
1) You must be able to hang on to your knife.
2) You must be able to cut and thrust accurately and effectively.
3) You must be able to count to five on the fingers of your knife hand when you're done (provided that's what you started with).
The last point refers tomanaging impact shock, an often ignored aspect of knife use. If you can take a TRAINING knife and thrust it full force into a tree or telephone pole without losing grip integrity, you're doing something right and your chosen grip should be up to the task. If you end up holding more blade than handle, it's time to reevaluate your grip.
With all that said, I feel that reverse grip is best up close and therefore works best for people who train to be comfortable operating at close range. Reverse grip also lends itself well to developing improvised weapon skills, since skill transfer to non-edged objects like pens and flashlights is pretty straight forward. Finally, it allows a more effective response to surprise attacks from the flanks and rear than a standard grip. For stick players, reverse grip training is also a great way of improving your punyo (butt of the stick) skills.
Hope this helps.
mike j
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Scorpius711
- Member
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: South Bend, Indiana USA
New question, any suggestions on switching from forward to reverse grip with a Spyderco Massad Ayoob, or Spyderco Police model? I can do it one handed by swinging it around but, I am not sure if I would trust my fine motor skills in a high stress situation.
To compensate I would use two hands to make the change.
Just wondering if anybody has any other suggestions?
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.
To compensate I would use two hands to make the change.
Just wondering if anybody has any other suggestions?
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.
Oh boy...trying to describe in words what I (or others here) could show you in about 3 seconds is going to be work. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
My favorite (and for me, most secure) way of reversing grip is exactly what Bram shows in his Gunting tapes. Although not all knives are as balanced or ergonomic (the spoon clip and matching index really are incredible), this does work with all my knives (Gunting, Military, BM CQC7, Buck 619, etc.).
1. Start in forward grip of your choice. If your thumb is not already there, move it to the left side of the grip (right handed description here) to get ready for the grip change.
2. The first time, the easiest way to get the feel for the index is to: keep your hand relaxed and bend your thumb and middle finger so that they slide back to the mid-point of the handle. As you do this the knife is supported by your pinky and ring fingers underneath and slightly by your still straight index finger.
3. Pinch slightly between your thumb and middle finger and straighten them...you'll see this moves the handle forward, and as the butt clears the web of your hand the knife will naturally "drop" forward.
4. As it drops forward, curl the handle back into your fingers and it will naturally rotate into a reverse grip with the blade "away".
Like trying to describe how to hit a golf ball, breaking it down will produce a somewhat choppy version of the real deal...once you picture what's supposed to happen it will all come together and look more like a "twirl" or a "spin" because it happens in one smooth, circular motion.
Whew. That was hard.
Be polite and professional, but have a plan to kill anyone you meet
My favorite (and for me, most secure) way of reversing grip is exactly what Bram shows in his Gunting tapes. Although not all knives are as balanced or ergonomic (the spoon clip and matching index really are incredible), this does work with all my knives (Gunting, Military, BM CQC7, Buck 619, etc.).
1. Start in forward grip of your choice. If your thumb is not already there, move it to the left side of the grip (right handed description here) to get ready for the grip change.
2. The first time, the easiest way to get the feel for the index is to: keep your hand relaxed and bend your thumb and middle finger so that they slide back to the mid-point of the handle. As you do this the knife is supported by your pinky and ring fingers underneath and slightly by your still straight index finger.
3. Pinch slightly between your thumb and middle finger and straighten them...you'll see this moves the handle forward, and as the butt clears the web of your hand the knife will naturally "drop" forward.
4. As it drops forward, curl the handle back into your fingers and it will naturally rotate into a reverse grip with the blade "away".
Like trying to describe how to hit a golf ball, breaking it down will produce a somewhat choppy version of the real deal...once you picture what's supposed to happen it will all come together and look more like a "twirl" or a "spin" because it happens in one smooth, circular motion.
Whew. That was hard.
Be polite and professional, but have a plan to kill anyone you meet
Scorp,
Here is a slightly different perspective. I agree that range is one of the main deciding factors in choosing forward or reverse grip, but there are others. If I am facing off with a BG, who is wearing a leather biker's jacket and carhart work pants, I am probably going to go with reverse grip, just for the extra penetration and power.
I have participated in several cutting experiments and I know that a good cut with a sharp knife will go thru those materials, but not as easy as a t-shirt and slacks, and it always gets harder when the BG is pulling these targets to safety instead of holding still.
If I have a short blade, like a delica, I will keep it in forward grip to get maximum cut depth and versatility from the shorter blade. If the BG closes to trapping range, I will be trying to run the blade up and down his body, filletting and doing
'bio-mechanical' damage.
Grip switching...now there's an interesting topic. I love grip switches. When I go to dinner with fellow FMA guys, we normally sit there doing grip switches with the butter knives, spoons or whatever. During the lecture part of knife seminars, about half the group is standing around doing grip switches and hand switches. That said, I never do grip switches in any kind of contact range (any range where the BG can get to me in one move). I have participated in a lot knife sparring, with various types of trainers. The number one reason for a disarm is a poor grip or changing grip by the attacker. The idea of holding my weapon with two fingers while in range of a quick move by the attacker seems like a good way to lose my knife.
When doing 1/2 to 3/4 speed flow drills I can normally do a grip switch fast enough to not break the flow...but not always. We did an experiment on a padded cutting arm being swung at angles 1 and 2 or 3 and 4, with the idea being to cut the first attack in one grip and then switch and cut the second attack from the other grip. This was still not at full speed, but at least 3/4+. We could not reliably do it. After the first real cut there is a certain amount of shock to absorb and you have to maintain whatever grip your first cut was in, past the target. You then have to release, twirl to your new grip, re-grip and orient the edge on target, all while moving your body to face the new attack. Maybe there is someone who can reliably do this, but we haven't met them yet.
If combat starts, work the grip you have and hang onto that knife with everything you've got!
Edited by - Protector on 4/28/2001 7:34:14 PM
Here is a slightly different perspective. I agree that range is one of the main deciding factors in choosing forward or reverse grip, but there are others. If I am facing off with a BG, who is wearing a leather biker's jacket and carhart work pants, I am probably going to go with reverse grip, just for the extra penetration and power.
I have participated in several cutting experiments and I know that a good cut with a sharp knife will go thru those materials, but not as easy as a t-shirt and slacks, and it always gets harder when the BG is pulling these targets to safety instead of holding still.
If I have a short blade, like a delica, I will keep it in forward grip to get maximum cut depth and versatility from the shorter blade. If the BG closes to trapping range, I will be trying to run the blade up and down his body, filletting and doing
'bio-mechanical' damage.
Grip switching...now there's an interesting topic. I love grip switches. When I go to dinner with fellow FMA guys, we normally sit there doing grip switches with the butter knives, spoons or whatever. During the lecture part of knife seminars, about half the group is standing around doing grip switches and hand switches. That said, I never do grip switches in any kind of contact range (any range where the BG can get to me in one move). I have participated in a lot knife sparring, with various types of trainers. The number one reason for a disarm is a poor grip or changing grip by the attacker. The idea of holding my weapon with two fingers while in range of a quick move by the attacker seems like a good way to lose my knife.
When doing 1/2 to 3/4 speed flow drills I can normally do a grip switch fast enough to not break the flow...but not always. We did an experiment on a padded cutting arm being swung at angles 1 and 2 or 3 and 4, with the idea being to cut the first attack in one grip and then switch and cut the second attack from the other grip. This was still not at full speed, but at least 3/4+. We could not reliably do it. After the first real cut there is a certain amount of shock to absorb and you have to maintain whatever grip your first cut was in, past the target. You then have to release, twirl to your new grip, re-grip and orient the edge on target, all while moving your body to face the new attack. Maybe there is someone who can reliably do this, but we haven't met them yet.
If combat starts, work the grip you have and hang onto that knife with everything you've got!
Edited by - Protector on 4/28/2001 7:34:14 PM
A agree with Mike n Protector..
really..
all of us can do grip changing in a place its comfortable,,
Personally? yeah I do it up close n personal IF need be..
of course we do as we train..
The Gunting, for example, was designed to facilitate changing grips...
Plus, in a perfect world we don't change grips "out there" where it's in the opponent's space..but in combative flow the question of what's his space and what's yours is very murky...and mutable..
BUT the bottom line is that I hold my knife as if my life depends on it...
really..
all of us can do grip changing in a place its comfortable,,
Personally? yeah I do it up close n personal IF need be..
of course we do as we train..
The Gunting, for example, was designed to facilitate changing grips...
Plus, in a perfect world we don't change grips "out there" where it's in the opponent's space..but in combative flow the question of what's his space and what's yours is very murky...and mutable..
BUT the bottom line is that I hold my knife as if my life depends on it...