Two handed MBC blade opening

[zenheretic]

:spyder: I don't know why so many spyders come with the clip all messed up for tip own carry. Obviously all knives should come tip-up standard. :spyder:

In a different thread Michael stated the above quote. I decided to open a new thread to address one small corner of the endless tip up tip down debate.

I realize that most MBC prefer tip up, but with Michael's "two handed opening method" during SHTF scenarios, I find that tip down provides a quicker method than tip up. (I've been playing with two handed opening since Michael mentioned it a few months ago.) Paradoxical vs one handed opening I realize, but that is how it tests in my hands. At the very least it seems to be equal just that you have to rotate the primary hand at different times. In tip down you have to rotate your hand to palm forward, just before pulling from the pocket in order to present the Spydie hole to the off hand in the front of the body. In tip up, you have to rotate the primary wrist just prior to open with the off hand, however this rotation seems to be a full 180 degrees and the palm is facing backwards after the knife is out of the pocket. Have you tried the variance? Thoughts from anyone regarding two handed opening? :spyder:

[smcfalls13]

I just tried Michael's two handed opening, and tip up or down, it's fast and CONSISTENT. I've tried quick openings one handed, and at least 1 out of 4 times, I'll slip up and the knife won't open fast enough(and I die)

It's pretty hard to tell whether tip up or down is faster though. I can't push the stopwatch with my toe well enough to time it :p

But I'll agree with zen, for two handed opening, tip down feels more natural, while one handed opening feels more natural with tip up.

Could just be the way I do it though, I'm curious to see if anyone else's experiences mirror this.

[zenheretic]

I just tried Michael's two handed opening, and tip up or down, it's fast and CONSISTENT. I've tried quick openings one handed, and at least 1 out of 4 times, I'll slip up and the knife won't open fast enough(and I die).

Yeah! I have that problem too! If I fumble when, I'm in "training mode" I shudder to think what would happen with adrenaline and a perp to up that ante!

It's pretty hard to tell whether tip up or down is faster though. I can't push the stopwatch with my toe well enough to time it :p .

I use my nose but maybe you aren't blessed with a big snozz. :p

But I'll agree with zen, for two handed opening, tip down feels more natural, while one handed opening feels more natural with tip up.

Could just be the way I do it though, I'm curious to see if anyone else's experiences mirror this.

That is my hope as well.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: I learned the two-handed technique from Michael Janich at a seminar back in October. The combative moments immediatly prior to deploying a knife will often, unfortunately, be filled with gross motor functions. Think punching, eye jabbing and shoving in order to make the needed room to draw and deploy a blade.

The brain doesn't easily trasition from that sort of gross movement to the fine motor function needed to one hand open a knife, more so during the adreneline dump. Try it with partner practice and see for yourself.

I'm reminded of something my Aikido sensei often says, that there is great power in the profound observation of the obvious.

Tip down does seem to have an edge for two handed opening. The above quote was a toungue in cheek remark referring more to knifesturbation (great word, Jimmy Dean! :p )than to combative training. Nowadays I only use one-handed openings for play, any kind of serious training and it's a two handed opening. :spyder:

[stonyman]

I have really been working the two handed method with my spderco karambit consistently. Unless you suffer an arm injury before your able to draw your knife, this is a solid, safer, method. I will add as a side-note that when I introduced some scenario training where students had to respond-NOW! More times than not the result of a one handed opening was a fumble disaster resulting in that clanging sound. Hey nice knife on the floor. Guys, train realistically to face the elephant! Thanks Mike for the two handed option idea with my karambit. Take care everyone.

[markg]

The two hand opening tech. is a marvel... It works, and works when things are bad. It is natural, basic and fuctional.

Tip up or down... it seems to work for me, just practice with one, and be consitant in what you carry.

With good footwork, the two handed opening is similar to also working with a handgun draw... Which makes sense from a training standpoint.

I have tried it both tip up and down... I think what your observation is really saying is that one hand opening favors tip down... Two hand opening can work reasonably well with either. :)

I was at the same seminar with Mike Cook, and that was the first time I saw that draw. The previous seminar in April of last year we did inertia opening, and frankly I suck at those. I was pretty jazzed at this new material.

[smcfalls13]

The previous seminar in April of last year we did inertia opening, and frankly I suck at those. I was pretty jazzed at this new material.

I love intertial openings, but in a SHTF scenario, I would dare use them. They're cool to show off, but when it comes down to it, it's very inconsistent.

I've tried to do it as fast as possible, and what happens is usually one of three things.

1. The blade opens the way it's supposed to(not that common)
2. I don't flick the blade hard enough, and it opens haflway(most common, and not that pleasant to do)
3. I flick too hard, and the knife FLIES OUT OF MY HAND(once or twice )

So should I ever need to use my knife(I hope not) it will be two handed opening, because I don't want to fumble, drop, or half open my knives during an adrenaline dump.

[zenheretic]

Too bad the Yojimbo is tip up only...

[smcfalls13]

Too bad the Yojimbo is tip up only...

It could be drilled, but then the clip just wouldn't fit the hand properly, it would need an entirely redesigned clip.

[zenheretic]

It could be drilled, but then the clip just wouldn't fit the hand properly, it would need an entirely redesigned clip.

That is true, but the bulk of the knife (revolving around the pivot would be protruding from the pants pocket. Not sure how well that would carry. Who knows, it might actually be easier to grasp and deploy with the "big end" protruding. :cool: I might have to email our resident clip moving expert STR and see what he thinks.

[jaislandboy]

Hey Zen, I prefer this opening technique... :D

[zenheretic]

The Wave is fun, but it is only one step above inertia openings for MBC consistency (for me).

[Cameron23]

This thread reminds me of something I read quite a while ago about how members of the ****'s Angels could deploy (and put into use) their favored Buck 110s faster than most people could do the same with a switchblade (of the same time period). Hmmm....

Personally, the only time I've had to deploy a knife in a MBC situation was when dealing with a box-cutter wielding homeless man at one of my previous jobs. One-hand thumb-assisted "flick" opening of my Matriarch was enough of a deterent.

Cameron :spyder:

[smcfalls13]

This thread reminds me of something I read quite a while ago about how members of the ****'s Angels could deploy (and put into use) their favored Buck 110s faster than most people could do the same with a switchblade (of the same time period). Hmmm....

That's a perfect example of training versus mechanics. It doesn't matter what kind of knife you have, if you're familiar with it, you can deploy it faster than a moron with an auto who's cocky because he's got an auto.

[Russell92]

Would someone mind going over the two handed opening technique?

I guess I missed any threads about it since this is the first time I'm hearing of it.

Thanks

[zenheretic]

Would someone mind going over the two handed opening technique?

I guess I missed any threads about it since this is the first time I'm hearing of it.

Thanks

I'm not the most logical to answer but I'll take a stab nevertheless. It really is exactly what it sounds like...nothing secret super ninja stuff. Assuming you carry knife in front pocket of strong hand (primary hand, most people it is the right hand :rolleyes: ) 1. Grab knife and withdraw from pocket. 2. Bring knife up to center line of body at about sternum level (not required but as Mr. Blonde pointed out, having both hands here helps to defend against kicks, punches and strikes, it also helps raise your focus forward towards the threat instead of looking down at your pocket as many might habitually do when getting their knife. 3. Using weak hand (for most this is the left) grab blade/spydie hole and open knife completely "click". 4. Since weak hand is already at midline it is ready to assist in the defense, blocks/grappling/strikes/punches, while strong hand has knife. Advantages already listed by Michael Cook in this thread regarding the lose of fine motor control.

Naturally this method nor any method will work well if not practiced frequently.

Please note I've made many assumptions on this method, as I have never taken the class that others have taken so "caveat emptor" :p Also, I totally disregarded foot work, which is the foundation of any response.

[Russell92]

It really is exactly what it sounds like...nothing secret super ninja stuff.

Thanks for the explanation. I like the idea of avoiding fine motor functions, but since the technique doesn't involve any secret super ninja moves I'm not really interested

Trying it out for the first time today I'm not as fast as with one handed opening, but I have yet to fumble and not open the blade all the way as I sometimes do with one handed openings.

[zenheretic]

[quote="Russell92"]Thanks for the explanation. I like the idea of avoiding fine motor functions, but since the technique doesn't involve any secret super ninja moves I'm not really interested ]
Yeah I'm pretty certain one handed is faster, but it requires more fine motor control. There are certainly scenarios when two won't work, such as if they are already in your face, raining down blows, so it is worth it to practice both. :cool:

[WORKER#9]

[quote="jaislandboy"]Hey Zen, I prefer this opening technique... ]

Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[smcfalls13]

I was thinking...bad idea I know...

I've read that using one's knife in a self defense scenario should be the last option in your arsenal, not the first(unless your attacked with a deadly weapon, of course). Unless you have to defend yourself, you should always try to run, if that fails, it's better to use whatever martial arts you practice.

I've also read that your opponent should not even know you have a knife until he's bleeding.

Yet another thing that I've read, nearly all fights on the street end up on the ground in a few seconds.

So my question is, what is the best way to deploy your knife once the fight goes to the ground? 2 handed doesn't seem like a good candidate, considering you'll likely have both hands occupied defending yourself. Neither does one handed, because by that point you will have NO fine motor skills, and you won't be concentrating on the knife, but rather the punches and kicks you're receiving. Is it even possible to deploy your knife at that point?

It just seems contradictory to say that the knife should be last option, considering that by the time you'll really need it, you won't be able to get to it. It seems like their is a VERY small window of oppurtunity to get your knife into play, and it's definitely not the LAST option. It just seems to me that if it's not the first move you make, you won't be able to get it at all.

Also to deploy it without notice is going to be nearly impossible to do.

Any thoughts on this? Am I wrong here, and making incorrect assumptions? Or are these "guidelines" a little flawed.

Maybe I'm just "armchair quarterbacking" but it just doesn't make any sense to me.