Carlos brought up some interestng topics for discussion (on evolution of the tool). We sort of went really far out..this is good, no limits on the mind, right.
But I feel that each of those topics would be in themselves worth exploring.
This one I've also noticed in the car, motorcycle and sailboat industries.
There is value in compexity. many parts means closer focus to achievement is attainable.
There is also value in simplicity. IMO refinement adds to simplicy. The shape of an egg or a leaf. The very form reduces the need for complexity.
On the other hand, there are complex goings on within the leaf and the egg.
Our design team seems to strive to simplify our designs as we refine them.
Which do you think is the direction to go and why?
sal
Complexity vs Simplicity
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Brian_Turner
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
I vote for refined simplicity: "Do more with less."
It often seems that doing things in a simple (but equally functional) way is more difficult and more expensive, but results in a superior end product.
A one-piece handle of molded carbon-epoxy laminate, in my mind is a 100x superior to one made of two carbon-epoxy slabs with two metal liners and pins/screws holding the whole sandwich together. But the former is more labour intensive and no doubt more expensive, and most ELU are satisfied with the latter's more complex and weaker construction -- and might even prefer it because it looks stronger to the untrained eye. A monocoque CF chassis in a race car is simpler and stonger and lighter than a bolted and welded steel frame in a street car, but more expensive and difficult to produce as well.
The Linerlock is another example of something that is mechanically very simple, but is very difficult to produce correctly. You've noted that the compression lock is similarly refined -- deceptively simple in design but difficult to execute in practice.
It is possible for the simple to outperform the complex -- especially in terms of reliability -- but it is more difficult to create and to produce. Requiring greater attention to detail, closer tolerances, etc.
You'll note that the increase of complexity in many high-tech industries has increased certain capabilities, but at the high-cost of reduced reliability and more frequent and expensive maintenance. I would argue that the folding knife as an everyday object must place a higher priority on the values of reliability, and ease and low cost of maintenance.
What you've done with the Military, and what you are doing with the ATR is the direction that I think Spyderco should continue to pursue.
Edited by - Carlos on 1/1/2001 10:06:13 AM
It often seems that doing things in a simple (but equally functional) way is more difficult and more expensive, but results in a superior end product.
A one-piece handle of molded carbon-epoxy laminate, in my mind is a 100x superior to one made of two carbon-epoxy slabs with two metal liners and pins/screws holding the whole sandwich together. But the former is more labour intensive and no doubt more expensive, and most ELU are satisfied with the latter's more complex and weaker construction -- and might even prefer it because it looks stronger to the untrained eye. A monocoque CF chassis in a race car is simpler and stonger and lighter than a bolted and welded steel frame in a street car, but more expensive and difficult to produce as well.
The Linerlock is another example of something that is mechanically very simple, but is very difficult to produce correctly. You've noted that the compression lock is similarly refined -- deceptively simple in design but difficult to execute in practice.
It is possible for the simple to outperform the complex -- especially in terms of reliability -- but it is more difficult to create and to produce. Requiring greater attention to detail, closer tolerances, etc.
You'll note that the increase of complexity in many high-tech industries has increased certain capabilities, but at the high-cost of reduced reliability and more frequent and expensive maintenance. I would argue that the folding knife as an everyday object must place a higher priority on the values of reliability, and ease and low cost of maintenance.
What you've done with the Military, and what you are doing with the ATR is the direction that I think Spyderco should continue to pursue.
Edited by - Carlos on 1/1/2001 10:06:13 AM
I am becoming a big fan of the simplicity. When I got my first Spydie not all that long ago, it was a Military. I picked it up, laid it beside one of my beloved AFCKs, and was completely impressed. The lack of liners IMHO made it function even more smoothly, and it actually felt more solid than the AFCK. From that day on, I wasn't skeptical of the linerless designs, and I actually have acquired more Spydies than any other knife since then.
I would like to see Spyderco continue to make their knives as simple as possible, and improve on their already superior designs. The compression lock is a great way to go as I look at it more and think about it, as it doesn't use the springs and such that many of the newer locks do. The only thing that I like better than the concept behind the compression lock is that of the intergral lock, it functions wonderfully, and I have never seen one that didn't lock up well.
I would like to see Spyderco continue to make their knives as simple as possible, and improve on their already superior designs. The compression lock is a great way to go as I look at it more and think about it, as it doesn't use the springs and such that many of the newer locks do. The only thing that I like better than the concept behind the compression lock is that of the intergral lock, it functions wonderfully, and I have never seen one that didn't lock up well.
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AncientSUL
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
I think this is a question that have bogged our minds for some time. I believe the older and hopefully more refine we get the simpler we try to make our lives. By this I am in no way putting down any knife or knife company. There is a soft side of me that would like the knife I use to be as simple as possible. The more parts there are the more points of failure there are. That is why I was always impress with the Sebenza. It is just beautiful. Now custom makers make the knife even more beautiful. I love the idea the ATR with the intregal compression lock. But Sal, I have to ask you why you put the locking bar on the left scale instead of the right scale(a al Gunting). I think Mr.Frank had a good idea not to change the position of your grip when closing the knife. Do you have a right scale lock prototype?? I would love to see it. Have a great one guys/gals..
Liong
Liong
Hi Liong. Bram wanted the lock on the back side. He felt it was safer for his style.
On my designs, I put the lock on the front side because I felt it was more user friendly and not less safe. I think Bram's way works better for Bram and the way he teaches MBC. Frank Centofante decided on a front side lock. Fortunately, the lock is versatile enough to work both ways.
sal
On my designs, I put the lock on the front side because I felt it was more user friendly and not less safe. I think Bram's way works better for Bram and the way he teaches MBC. Frank Centofante decided on a front side lock. Fortunately, the lock is versatile enough to work both ways.
sal
Evidently we need a Devil's Advocate for complexity. I have been trying to think of cases/examples where increased complexity has contributed benefits otherwise unattainable by simplicity.
The first thing that came to mind is the Cobra Hood. I have a hard time telling from the pictures if is an add-on piece, but if so I think it shows that slightly increased complexity may be a refinement over the more simple. Perhaps we should be considering a "middle path" rather than a Platonic purism of simplicity. Greater simplicity when that simplicity brings a measurable gain, and the same for complexity.
What do you guys think?
Edited by - Carlos on 1/5/2001 8:19:15 PM
The first thing that came to mind is the Cobra Hood. I have a hard time telling from the pictures if is an add-on piece, but if so I think it shows that slightly increased complexity may be a refinement over the more simple. Perhaps we should be considering a "middle path" rather than a Platonic purism of simplicity. Greater simplicity when that simplicity brings a measurable gain, and the same for complexity.
What do you guys think?
Edited by - Carlos on 1/5/2001 8:19:15 PM
I'm thinking today that these two "concepts" are not really choices, but two parts to a cycle.
We want things to be as simple as possible, and we will take complex routes to get there.
And there are side routes, like "we use four valves now for greater performance", where the emphasis is on performance, not complexity/simplicity. Probably using four valves was just the SIMPLEST way to increase performance, so it was used! See what I mean?
We use very complex machines, algorthims, chemistries, etc, to try and make things as simple as they can be! If we _could_ do it a simplier way, we would, and we are always trying to find a simplier way, even if we employ complex means to do so...
Makes sense to me! :-)
We want things to be as simple as possible, and we will take complex routes to get there.
And there are side routes, like "we use four valves now for greater performance", where the emphasis is on performance, not complexity/simplicity. Probably using four valves was just the SIMPLEST way to increase performance, so it was used! See what I mean?
We use very complex machines, algorthims, chemistries, etc, to try and make things as simple as they can be! If we _could_ do it a simplier way, we would, and we are always trying to find a simplier way, even if we employ complex means to do so...
Makes sense to me! :-)
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Joel McNamara
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- Posts: 23
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
some good points. Thomas, interesting observation, and probably true.
The many and complicated parts to create the original "woking model" and then the simplification process.
Eventually, auto makers will figure out how to get as much fuel into the chamber with fewer valves.
we will usually make slab handles before an injection molded part. Working out glitches, etc. Then we try to simiplify.
sal
The many and complicated parts to create the original "woking model" and then the simplification process.
Eventually, auto makers will figure out how to get as much fuel into the chamber with fewer valves.
we will usually make slab handles before an injection molded part. Working out glitches, etc. Then we try to simiplify.
sal