It seems to me that there are three basic reasons why collectors are clamoring over the Matriarch (besides from just wanting something we can't have), rather than just buying the readily available Civilian:
1. Much lower price (which is why it is being restricted)
2. Shorter blade (under 4" legal limits)
3. Tip-up carry (Civilians are tip-down)
I would like to suggest a "Civilian Jr." if you will, for the US market. Just a Matriarch in terms of basic design, but with G10 or Almite handle scales, in the same limited numbers as the Civilian, and with pricing equivalent to the Military (or a bit higher). That would satisfy those with reasons #2 and #3, and it would be a little less expensive than the Civilian, but not with the super easy accessibility seen with the Zytel version's pricing, and therefore expensive enough to discourage the abuses that Sal wants to avoid.
I don't know if Spyderco would see something like this as feasible or desirable, but it may be a way to satisfy collectors, aid potential (good guy) users, and head off the growing "black market" in Matriarchs which now has them trading for $100+.
Just my $0.02
The Matriarch problem.
-
Swampgator
- Member
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Carlos I feel your desire to own one just by reading your post. It seems to me that Sal is happy that if you really want one you would have to fork over 100+ dollars. His main concern is to keep them out of the hands of low life criminals. Other than selling them from the SFO for 100 bucks, maybe he could make them really worth 100 dollars like a baby brother of the Civilian. Better steel, better handle material, and appease the people who want the Matriarch blade and design but at a price comparable to the Civilian. I don't know. The only other option is to make friends with a cop who will buy you one or become a cop. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Hello Carlos,
Personally I don't have much interest in the Matriarch and Civilian. I would have trouble justifying ownership of a knife I can't use for utility. I also agree with Spyderco efforts to keep the Matriarch out of the wrong hands although I do understand why some knife nuts want one. After reading Carlos's post I was curious if an artificially high price has ever been considered for the Matriarch. Law enforcement, military and foreign consumers could continue to purchase them at the standard price. For those collectors who really want one, they could purchase them for $100 or so. It was pointed on the black-market price for Matriarch is already in that range. Clearly some people are willing to pay more than retail for a used Matriarch. The Matriarch would then be in the same price range as most of Spyderco MBC knives. This would allow Spyderco to continue to restrict Matriarch ownership and appease knife collectors as well. This solution might also work for the possible FRN handled larger harpy which it sounds like Sal has similar concerns about. Anyway, just an idea.
Glenn
Personally I don't have much interest in the Matriarch and Civilian. I would have trouble justifying ownership of a knife I can't use for utility. I also agree with Spyderco efforts to keep the Matriarch out of the wrong hands although I do understand why some knife nuts want one. After reading Carlos's post I was curious if an artificially high price has ever been considered for the Matriarch. Law enforcement, military and foreign consumers could continue to purchase them at the standard price. For those collectors who really want one, they could purchase them for $100 or so. It was pointed on the black-market price for Matriarch is already in that range. Clearly some people are willing to pay more than retail for a used Matriarch. The Matriarch would then be in the same price range as most of Spyderco MBC knives. This would allow Spyderco to continue to restrict Matriarch ownership and appease knife collectors as well. This solution might also work for the possible FRN handled larger harpy which it sounds like Sal has similar concerns about. Anyway, just an idea.
Glenn
Hi Swampgator. Welcome to the Spyderco forum.
We're not pleased that collectors will pay more than $100 for a Matriarch. That is certainly not our intention.
We made them available to collectors though blade forums. some wanted them and we sent them.
Rather than look at it from the "buying" point of veiw, please try to consider another "point of view".
We would like to make these models available to "responible" citizens and law enforcement. we would like every Law enforcement professional to wear one.
We make them available because there is a need, not to make money. Frankly, it's not all that great of a moneymaker (limited production & "watched" distribution) and a pain in the a$$ in distribution.
Many suggest that it would be easier to just "not make it", except for those that "need" it.
"It is a puzzlement".
sal
We're not pleased that collectors will pay more than $100 for a Matriarch. That is certainly not our intention.
We made them available to collectors though blade forums. some wanted them and we sent them.
Rather than look at it from the "buying" point of veiw, please try to consider another "point of view".
We would like to make these models available to "responible" citizens and law enforcement. we would like every Law enforcement professional to wear one.
We make them available because there is a need, not to make money. Frankly, it's not all that great of a moneymaker (limited production & "watched" distribution) and a pain in the a$$ in distribution.
Many suggest that it would be easier to just "not make it", except for those that "need" it.
"It is a puzzlement".
sal
-
Swampgator
- Member
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Thank you for your response Sal. I have a great respect for you and your company. I love Spyderco and their commitment to quality. I also appreciate the fact that we can talk to the CEO through these mediums. I guess the Civilian and the Matriarch are some of those gotta have knives with a rather limited use. I don't want to tell you how to run your company. I respect your judgement in the matter but I also feel the desperate wanting of some members to possess them just by reading their posts. It is a hunger that you probably never will satisfy no matter what you do. Thanks again.
-
sam the man..
- Member
- Posts: 2935
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Kuala Lumpur Malaysia
Dude ~ I certainly agree with the sales policy. It'll be a nightmare having a bunch of bad guys terrorising your neighbourhoods with cheap Matriarchs. Regulated sales are the only way to curb that. I guess some collectors were lucky enough to get their hands on the limited-run grey Matriarchs. Other that its defensive function, there's really not much use for this blade... I personally think that both the Civillian and Matriarch are fine work of art and having the sales of the Matriarch restricted to LEO only -- is a morally responsible move! <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Sam
have spydies
will travel...
Sam
have spydies
will travel...
"It is a puzzlement."
I was thinking that maybe making them available to collectors only through SFO might be a controllable option, but then I realized that the regular Spyderco dealers wouldn't be happy about that.
I can live without one, though there have been times when walking through the dark heart of Roxbury where it would have been comforting to have one within reach.
I'll go back to keeping a look-out for technical goodies.
I was thinking that maybe making them available to collectors only through SFO might be a controllable option, but then I realized that the regular Spyderco dealers wouldn't be happy about that.
I can live without one, though there have been times when walking through the dark heart of Roxbury where it would have been comforting to have one within reach.
I'll go back to keeping a look-out for technical goodies.
Hi Carlos. I'd be happy to sell you one. I have some idea of who you are.
I have difficulty with a gun show dealer selling Matriarchs to anyone that wants one for $1 over wholesale price. That says "making the buck$" is more important than anything...and to us, there is more to "responsible business" than just buck$.
In addition, I don't like dealing with the ELU that sends me a letter complaining of Spyderco quality because his Matriarch tip didn't hold up to repeated seat belt cutting. I bet his Lotus won't hold up to being a tractor or a plow.
sal
I have difficulty with a gun show dealer selling Matriarchs to anyone that wants one for $1 over wholesale price. That says "making the buck$" is more important than anything...and to us, there is more to "responsible business" than just buck$.
In addition, I don't like dealing with the ELU that sends me a letter complaining of Spyderco quality because his Matriarch tip didn't hold up to repeated seat belt cutting. I bet his Lotus won't hold up to being a tractor or a plow.
sal
Hi Sal,
Last night at Thanksgiving dinner, my cousin (who's in construction) showed me a news clip where someone had attempted to use a small passenger car as a heavy truck, by placing 3000# of construction materials on top of the car. The weight crushed the back half of the sedan (passenger compartment & trunk) and lifted the front to a 45 degree angle in the air. "Lotus as a tractor" indeed.
I don't mean to raise a big stink over the Matriarch, but I know that you are always open to new, constructive solutions. It is a tough problem.
BTW Sal, is your email working? I've sent you two regarding the ATR and haven't heard back from you. I have two email accounts and they are both working.
Best,
Carlos
Last night at Thanksgiving dinner, my cousin (who's in construction) showed me a news clip where someone had attempted to use a small passenger car as a heavy truck, by placing 3000# of construction materials on top of the car. The weight crushed the back half of the sedan (passenger compartment & trunk) and lifted the front to a 45 degree angle in the air. "Lotus as a tractor" indeed.
I don't mean to raise a big stink over the Matriarch, but I know that you are always open to new, constructive solutions. It is a tough problem.
BTW Sal, is your email working? I've sent you two regarding the ATR and haven't heard back from you. I have two email accounts and they are both working.
Best,
Carlos
I just wanted to put my 2 cents in on this.As recently I was ,let's just say,thankful to the minds that created the civilian.The tip didn't hold up but in that situation I don't think any blade would have.And whether it was a civilian,matriarch,or a civie jr.was of no matter,it performed to expectations and that is what truly matters.The restricted sales are necessary,but (to those of us who know)I think we are responsible enough to in fact appreciate these fine pieces and not abuse them,however there are those out there who would.My personal oppinion is that autos and balisongs are a viable argument for restricted sales.One handed openers aren't, but exceptions are ,and have to be made to insure we all can enjoy the knives I as well as all of you love and cherish.To those who risk their lives and to those who are put in uncomfortable situations, knives such as the matriarch are necessary and for the rest of us here we all know the value of a hard to get item and probably would keep them locked up or in the display case.If it was a perfect world I would own them all,but until that time I'll enjoy the search and let things stand as they are.Simply because that is the way they have to be.
Someday my friends,I'll own them all!!!
Someday my friends,I'll own them all!!!
Carlos said:
"It seems to me that there are three basic reasons why collectors are clamoring over the Matriarch (besides from just wanting something we can't have), rather than just buying the readily available Civilian:
1. Much lower price (which is why it is being restricted)
2. Shorter blade (under 4" legal limits)
3. Tip-up carry (Civilians are tip-down)"
Actually, none of the above reasons is relevant to me. I like my Matriarchs better because of the reversible clip (I'm a southpaw). I also like the fact that they're lightweight, which allows me to clip them just about anywhere.
My wife also carries a Matriarch, and that helps to ease my mind when she's out there and I'm not with her.
Regards,
Leo Daher
"It seems to me that there are three basic reasons why collectors are clamoring over the Matriarch (besides from just wanting something we can't have), rather than just buying the readily available Civilian:
1. Much lower price (which is why it is being restricted)
2. Shorter blade (under 4" legal limits)
3. Tip-up carry (Civilians are tip-down)"
Actually, none of the above reasons is relevant to me. I like my Matriarchs better because of the reversible clip (I'm a southpaw). I also like the fact that they're lightweight, which allows me to clip them just about anywhere.
My wife also carries a Matriarch, and that helps to ease my mind when she's out there and I'm not with her.
Regards,
Leo Daher
Oops, I'll guess we'll call it five reasons. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
I do have one question on the Matriarch design: Why was the Endura handle chosen rather than the Rescue handle?
The Rescue's handle is similar to the Civilian's, and looks like it might be more secure, while the Endura's seems more versatile in terms of grip variation.
I'm sure there is a good reason, I am just curious as to what it is.
I do have one question on the Matriarch design: Why was the Endura handle chosen rather than the Rescue handle?
The Rescue's handle is similar to the Civilian's, and looks like it might be more secure, while the Endura's seems more versatile in terms of grip variation.
I'm sure there is a good reason, I am just curious as to what it is.