Kitchen Mule Discussion

[vivi]

I'll get my hands on it next week, and will let you guys know how it works for us.

[Flash]

Excellent work here folks. The CAD one looks great - The swedge looks like a nice addition.

I’m still a bit confused as to why we need a Spydiehole on a fixed-blade knife that’s designed to be used primarily in the kitchen, cleaned, then put back in a draw.

Do people have a specific requirement for it to be there?
Do people appreciate extra germ and potential rust catch-points on their kitchen cutlery?
Do people enjoy the extra cleaning / maintenance required to mitigate the extra catch-points?
Do people want to pay extra for a process which decreases its utility?

As a compromise to all the hole-lovers could the hole be etched on the blade instead? Just this once?

[sal]

Hi Flash,

The Round Through hole in a particular location on the blade is a Spyderco Trademark that took many decades and legal activity to finally acquire. As a Trademark, it's very important that this identifiable mark be present on our products. Trademarks do not expire as patents do. They can be around for many generations if properly used.

We left it off some of our Kitchen knives that are older designs, and we left it off of the Carter series, but it really needs to be present to maintain the strength of the Trademark. Since the Mule Team knives have a "Trademark Round Hole" and a Kitchen Mule would be a variation of the Mule Team project, we would want it to be identified as a Spyderco and keep our trademark strong.

I hope that helps?

sal

[Scandi Grind]

Excellent work here folks. The CAD one looks great - The swedge looks like a nice addition.

I’m still a bit confused as to why we need a Spydiehole on a fixed-blade knife that’s designed to be used primarily in the kitchen, cleaned, then put back in a draw.

Do people have a specific requirement for it to be there?
Do people appreciate extra germ and potential rust catch-points on their kitchen cutlery?
Do people enjoy the extra cleaning / maintenance required to mitigate the extra catch-points?
Do people want to pay extra for a process which decreases its utility?

As a compromise to all the hole-lovers could the hole be etched on the blade instead? Just this once?

I have to generally agree with this sentiment. As Sal has said though it is a strong preference of the brand to have it. I'll be straight though, the round hole in fixed blades is one of the reasons I tend to think Spyderco doesn't quite hit the right note for me with the ones they make. On many blades it isn't the biggest deal, but I feel like on a kitchen knife if my pinch grip lands on that hole at all, it's gonna bug and I will maybe just avoid getting one. I get the trademark thing, but at the same time for a company that is so well known for aiming to make the best performance knives possible, it doesn't feel quite right to do something that will hurt the function of the knife for that reason alone. Just my honest take.

I don't really know how trademarks work, but I wouldn't think that it would have to go on every knife possible to be valid. Again though, I wouldn't know, it would just be kind of weird to me if that was the case, and perhaps unfortunate because of it's effect on fixed blade Spydies.

While my opinion probably shouldn't hold that much weight, I do wonder how many other people have similar feelings.

[Coastal]

I had similar feelings but, as I posted earlier, I had that discussion with Sal a couple years ago and accepted his explanation.

Since this knife is intended for the kitchen, I suggest making it large enough to easily clean, and placing it in a spot away from a normal pinch grip. A possibility, and this sounds like a long shot, is to extend the handle slightly and place it in the "pommel" this would create. Of course this wouldn't work with a tapered tang. Another possibility is to place it well forward on the blade, a la the Roadie. This would avoid the pinch grip issue, but almost guarantee that food would get in the hole, requiring cleaning.

[ChrisinHove]

I haven’t found the Spydiehole a problem on my K11 Cooks and K12 Chef’s Knives.

I’ve found that if I’m not washing the knife well enough to clean the hole, I not washing the knife well enough at all.

[Pengubandit]

I use my pocketknife for food a lot and wash it a lot and food in the hole is not really an issue except maybe on one that has a very tiny hole (like the ikuchi.) My Spydiechef and Drunken clean up super easy. So long as we keep the hole bigger that 3/8" and chamfer it, i don't it'll be an issue on the kitchen mule at all. The mule team hole also is fine to clean and it's on the smaller side.

I get that there's no need for a Spydiehole on a kitchen knife but I also don't think it would be detrimental if placed correctly. One neat possibility i see is to use the hole as a hanging point for keeping the knife on the wall. Center of gravity is close to the hole so it would balance nearly horizontally

[N. Brian Huegel]

Why the concern about a hole? It is really nothing.

Kind of like this Dad joke: What does a drill make? Nothing.

nb

[Flash]

Adding a hole in the blade of a fixed blade knife intended for use in the kitchen doesn’t add to its utility, it only takes it away.

You don’t need a hole in the blade of a kitchen knife. Nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise.

[sal]

Sorry Flash, Scandi Grind, Coastal, and anyone else concerned,

I understand the resistance to a hole in a kitchen knife, though I have seen kitchen knives with holes for hanging. But in the case of the Spyderco trademark, the hole has to be in a certain location, not just "anywhere". I've been using our Mule Teams in the kitchen for years, and I just make sure to clean out the hole.

In reality, our Trademark is far more important than the Kitchen Mule, so if one or the other has to go, it will be the kitchen Mule, as we need our trademark.

I have an email into our legal team to see just how important the hole needs to be on a Kitchen Mule and its effect on our trademark. I should be able t get a response in a few days.

I'm sorry this has become an issue, but as a Company, Spyderco has been infringed on so much by some competitors and counterfeiters, that we need to pay attention to any protection we can have to battle for our identity.

sal

[Scandi Grind]

Well, I expect decisions to made in the best interest of the company, so I can understand the situation. Unfortunately though if it is between the hole or no mule, for me even if it was made, it might just be no mule. I can't say that the hole would be a hard no for certain, but I would have to get some positive thoughts from people I trust for an opinion before I would consider getting one I think.

[vivi]

Sal,

The hole has never been an issue for me, whether using my z cuts professionally or slicing up salami and apples while backpacking with your folders.

Whatever works best for Spyderco is fine by me.

[Flash]

Sorry Flash, Scandi Grind, Coastal, and anyone else concerned,

I understand the resistance to a hole in a kitchen knife, though I have seen kitchen knives with holes for hanging. But in the case of the Spyderco trademark, the hole has to be in a certain location, not just "anywhere". I've been using our Mule Teams in the kitchen for years, and I just make sure to clean out the hole.

In reality, our Trademark is far more important than the Kitchen Mule, so if one or the other has to go, it will be the kitchen Mule, as we need our trademark.

I have an email into our legal team to see just how important the hole needs to be on a Kitchen Mule and its effect on our trademark. I should be able t get a response in a few days.

I'm sorry this has become an issue, but as a Company, Spyderco has been infringed on so much by some competitors and counterfeiters, that we need to pay attention to any protection we can have to battle for our identity.

sal

Hi Sal,

Knowing that this forum is a place where we can discuss pretty much every facet of a models production in detail, the hole in a kitchen mule is something that I wanted to bring up for discussion as it diminishes its utility. From a practical standpoint it’s an inconvenience, annoyance at worst.
As much as I’d like to do away with a hole in this particular model, I wouldn’t want it to be an issue, red tape or anything which affects its completion.
If it needs one as a trademark, then it has to have one.

I’m sure, even with a hole, the kitchen mule series will go on to be hugely popular.


…Now, how small could we get this hole to be?

[bob-atlatl]

X2,"Whatever works best for Spyderco is fine by me."

[sal]

High Flash,

I was thinking to make it large enough to easily clean. The hole in the current Mule Team is about 8mm, which is fairly easy to clean. If the hole is too small, it becomes difficult to clean.

I'm open to your thoughts?

sal

[N. Brian Huegel]

As I said back in March, "giving the blade a SpydieHole could be incorporated into the design as the balance point and as the place for thumb and forefinger to "pinch grip" for best control and lightness in hand." As I do not recall ever seeing the criteria for the trademark hole placement, I am not sure that this hole/pinch grip placement is possible, but i think that it is a concept worth exploring and possibly patentable.

nb

[vivi]

Gonna compare these four to a Victorinox Modern 8" chef knife and Kiwi #21 this week.

Handling the one with a hole I think ya'll are really over thinking that aspect of the design.

I also can tell just from holding them in different grips trying to keep the original mule handle shape won't work as well as a more purpose specific handle, in my opinion.

[Pengubandit]

I also don't think the hole will be an issue and I lean towards a slightly larger hole with good chamfering to make cleaning easier, something between a PM2 and Mule sized hole I think would work just fine. Especially with a taller blade, there's so much room to put the hole in a place where it would never get in the way.

I'm with you on the Mule handle Vivi. It kind of works but it's a compromise that doesn't need to be made.

On another note, I got a wider bar of 14C28N in and can start working on proper Kitchen Mule V2. I'll hold off on making any cuts until we have some feedback but I should be able to make a V1 or V2 Kitchen Mule.

Lastly, if we can, I'd like to have a bit of discussion on whether a tapered tang or full tang construction makes the most sense. I enjoy both for different reasons. If I was choosing completely independently I'd lean towards a tapered tang to keep steel usage lower and the whole knife lighter, but there's plenty to like about the full tang construction too. Do we have any strong opinions?

[vxd]

Holes in kitchen knives are unsanitary. You could just etch a little black circle instead.

[FirstPenguin]

Lastly, if we can, I'd like to have a bit of discussion on whether a tapered tang or full tang construction makes the most sense. I enjoy both for different reasons. If I was choosing completely independently I'd lean towards a tapered tang to keep steel usage lower and the whole knife lighter, but there's plenty to like about the full tang construction too. Do we have any strong opinions?

Generally I'm in favour of tapered tangs on knives with thicker stock, but at a maximum width of <2.5mm I don't know how much of an impact it would have on this knife. Removing handle material in the form of drilling holes might result in a similar change in balance. Then again, for those using heavier materials like G10 or micarta the taper might help push the balance point forward. I think that as long as the balance is biased towards the tip, which in a knife this long is desirable, then we could use a number of different methods to make the tang ligher. Which ones and how many will likely be determined my the final shape of the blade and the nature of the grind. I certainly don't have any strong objections to a tapered tang and, as long as it's ground flat, it shouldn't add much difficulty to making handles for it.

P.S. Didn't get as much shop time as I'd hoped last week, but I got the blank hardened and it's tempering in the toaster oven now.