Endura/Delica: What still speaks for sabre grind (while I generally prefer ffg)

[Evil D]

Someone in a Facebook group just posted pics of a broken K390 Endura recently that broke at the pivot just like the above pic.

[Bill1170]

Someone in a Facebook group just posted pics of a broken K390 Endura recently that broke at the pivot just like the above pic.

Did they disclose what the knife was used for when it broke? I always want to know this. I’m sure I could break my K390 Endura if I wanted to. But I don’t want to break it!

[Evil D]

Someone in a Facebook group just posted pics of a broken K390 Endura recently that broke at the pivot just like the above pic.

Did they disclose what the knife was used for when it broke? I always want to know this. I’m sure I could break my K390 Endura if I wanted to. But I don’t want to break it!

No I don't think they went into specifics. I'd bet they just got a little too aggressive with lateral force.

[Mad Mac]

A first gen hollow grind Endura in 1990
is what pulled me into the Spyder hole.
For nearly a quarter of a century
I was perfectly content.
Then went crazy building a collection.

Knives do not get used much by me.
Their appearance is what attracts,
not blade steel.
A hollow grind or a swedge
make my private parts tingle.

Personally, I think that Spyderco
has sold us on leaf shaped flat grind blades
because the manufacturing is easier,
faster and costs less than a hollow or saber grind.
But I could be wrong. I often am.
I have purchased my share of flat grind, too.

[Wartstein]

...
Knives do not get used much by me.
Their appearance is what attracts,
not blade steel.
...
Personally, I think that Spyderco
has sold us on leaf shaped flat grind blades
because the manufacturing is easier,
faster and costs less than a hollow or saber grind.
But I could be wrong....

What I personally think (and no offense meant to you!):

- Spyderco makes folders with actually an emphasis rather on real use, than on "appearance", and so I think the switch to ffg was most likely driven by that (real use) in mind...? (At least to me ffg happens to be the most versatile grind for an EDC folder).
Also, the sg Endura is still in production.. and when it comes to the serrated version of the VG10 "base" model actually the only option (no ffg here, unfortunately).

- Where I am with you though:
The switch from sabre hollow to "just" sabre could very well have been due to reasons of "easier to produce" imo...?
(And here sabre hollow without a doubt beats "just" sabre for me personally. Could directly compare those two in other than the grind two exact same blades in the same steel:
Sabre hollow in an old VG10 stainless steel handle Endura vs sg in a VG10 FRN handle Endura).

[Evil D]

- Where I am with you though:
The switch from sabre hollow to "just" sabre could very well have been due to reasons of "easier to produce" imo...?

I don't remember where I read it because it was many years ago when I was first learning about the fiber details of knife construction, but I know I read that hollow grinds where cheaper to manufacture than flat grinds. I won't argue that this is true, I just remember reading it. I think it had something to do with grinding both sides of a hollow grind between two wheels vs having to do flats individually on belts. Who know, manufacturing could have changed so much over the years that this could be totally different today.

[GarageBoy]

Hmm, now I want a saber grind delica in a "tough" steel

[Mad Mac]

In 2015 I bought a sprint run Terzuola Starmate.
It was a saber grind like the 1999 original, I assume.
The new release available now is hollow grind.
Starmate 2024 Sprint Run



I'm so confused.

[Wartstein]

I misread what you had written but that difference you’re showing is 100% due to how thin behind the edge they chose to grind one vs the other.

Sorry for the late reply!

So you think that the difference in how tall the apex is on the ffg vs the sabre grind Endura is "100 percent due to how thin behind the edge they chose to grind one vs the other"? (For illustration below once more my pic of apex on the ffg vs on the sg Endura - again, roughly the same edge angle!)

I am no expert at all, but I think I have to disagree respectfully. Please correct me if I am wrong, I am honestly happy to learn more, but here are my thoughts/observations:

- 1.) Two identical blades, except one has a more obtuse primary angle (sabre grind, cause the "full flat grind" only starts way down the blade), the other a more acute primary angle (ffg starting right at the spine) - but both are more or less true full flat grinds (so no convex/concave on that primary grind)
2.) An apex at the exact same angle is applied on both
3.) - > Just by geometry this apex then has to be taller on the more obtuse primary grind (=the sabre grind Endura in our case)

- Thickness / thinness behind the edge:
1.) I would assume that Spyderco actually does aim for a true full flat both on the ffg and the sabre grind (here of course starting below the upper rectangular blade portion)
2.) This would mean: The thickness behind the edge is pretty much predefined by a) how tall the apex is and b) how obtuse/acute the primary grind is - ?
So, 3.) Obviously the sabre grind Endura has to be a lot thicker behind the edge, because the apex is taller at a given edge angle (so goes up higher into the thicker parts of the blade)... plus the blade is even thicker up there due to the more obtuse primary grind (than it would be on ffg)?

[zhyla]

2.) This would mean: The thickness behind the edge is pretty much predefined by a) how tall the apex is and b) how obtuse/acute the primary grind is - ?

Sort of, but that’s the wrong way to look at it. The thickness behind the edge is determined by how thinly the primary bevel is ground.

What happens to that knife on the right? It didn’t come out of the factory that way did it? Was it sharpened a ton?

[Wartstein]

The switch from sabre hollow to "just" sabre could very well have been due to reasons of "easier to produce" imo...?

I don't remember where I read it because it was many years ago when I was first learning about the fiber details of knife construction, but I know I read that hollow grinds where cheaper to manufacture than flat grinds. I won't argue that this is true, I just remember reading it. I think it had something to do with grinding both sides of a hollow grind between two wheels vs having to do flats individually on belts. Who know, manufacturing could have changed so much over the years that this could be totally different today.

Now that you say it it seems to me I can recall reading something like that too... not sure though.

If the case, I wonder why then they switched from sabre hollow to "just" sabre for example with the stainless steel handle Endura... imo the former performs noticeably better in most cutting tasks.

Might be though that Spyderco wanted to go with the even stronger sabre grind? Or decided to generally go with only one of the two (sabre vs hollow) on most models for efficiency reasons and decided for sabre?

One thing that comes to mind too:
Wasn´t the reasons why they went with softer VG10 steel on the high performance Delica cause there where issues with grinding its high hollow grind into harder steels?
If even the case (perhaps I don´t remember correctly) I know that "harder to do" does not necessarily have to mean "more expensive" - but still hints that at least with hard steels a high hollow grind is somewhat complicated to produce...?

[Wartstein]

2.) This would mean: The thickness behind the edge is pretty much predefined by a) how tall the apex is and b) how obtuse/acute the primary grind is - ?

Sort of, but that’s the wrong way to look at it. The thickness behind the edge is determined by how thinly the primary bevel is ground.

What happens to that knife on the right? It didn’t come out of the factory that way did it? Was it sharpened a ton?

Thanks for the quick reply!

Again, nothing more than my layman thoughts and observations, I could be wrong and appreciate the discussion:

1.) "The knife on the right" actually shows the factory edge of a sabre grind Endura! Never sharpened!
This is exactly my point: The sabre grind Enduras come with a clearly taller apex while having about the same edge angle as the ffg Enduras - and this makes them bite into wood better and deeper (also true for the sabre grind Delica vs the ffg)
I still think that this is mostly due to the fact that by geometry a given apex angle just has to be taller on a more obtuse primary grind

2.) "Thickness behind the edge determined by how thinly the primary bevel is ground":

I agree of course, but if that primary grind is basically "flat" (and not concave or convex), like in "goes down from the spine or wherever it starts without wildly curving inwards or outwards":
The thickness behind the edge is pretty much predetermined at every point of that grind (so at every point the secondary grind/apex could end on that primary grind)...?

[Evil D]

The switch from sabre hollow to "just" sabre could very well have been due to reasons of "easier to produce" imo...?

I don't remember where I read it because it was many years ago when I was first learning about the fiber details of knife construction, but I know I read that hollow grinds where cheaper to manufacture than flat grinds. I won't argue that this is true, I just remember reading it. I think it had something to do with grinding both sides of a hollow grind between two wheels vs having to do flats individually on belts. Who know, manufacturing could have changed so much over the years that this could be totally different today.

Now that you say it it seems to me I can recall reading something like that too... not sure though.

If the case, I wonder why then they switched from sabre hollow to "just" sabre for example with the stainless steel handle Endura... imo the former performs noticeably better in most cutting tasks.

Might be though that Spyderco wanted to go with the even stronger sabre grind? Or decided to generally go with only one of the two (sabre vs hollow) on most models for efficiency reasons and decided for sabre?

One thing that comes to mind too:
Wasn´t the reasons why they went with softer VG10 steel on the high performance Delica cause there where issues with grinding its high hollow grind into harder steels?
If even the case (perhaps I don´t remember correctly) I know that "harder to do" does not necessarily have to mean "more expensive" - but still hints that at least with hard steels a high hollow grind is somewhat complicated to produce...?

It's entirely possible that what I read was just wrong too. It could also be a result of newer harder steels not behaving the same when you stick a blade between two spinning wheels. I believe blade shape has a role in this too, especially if your hollow grind follows the curve of a belly/edge like CRK do, that has to complicate things compared to a more straight blade like an Endura.

[Wartstein]

I´d actually really be interested in more comparison (pics) of the apex on ffg vs sabre grind Enduras / Delicas having about the same edge angle and if the observations of other folks match mine in that regard

As said, on my few sabre grind examples (just like four or five I think) the apex was clearly taller (went higher up the blade) than on the ffg versions, while having about the same edge angle (as far as I recall).
Shown in the pics in my previous posts (and how to be expected just by reasons of geometry - same edge angle/secondary grind a) on a more obtuse vs b) a more acute primary grind).

Again, in the pieces I used, this IS a particular advantage of sabre grind Enduras vs ffg Enduras that I could experience: Cause the "shoulders" of the grind hit material that gets cut later the sabre grind versions initially bite deeper into wood (while generally/overall imo ffg clearly is the better cutter).