Endura/Delica: What still speaks for sabre grind (while I generally prefer ffg)

[Wartstein]

Talked about this quite some times already, but since I came across these old pics let me put it in a dedicated thread:

I pretty much always prefer ffg over sabre grind when it comes to folders, also true for my favorites Endura and Delica.
But there still are arguments for sabre grind and certain scenarios it is better suited for imo.

1.) On a sabre grind Endura the secondary grind / apex goes higher up the blade than on the ffg (given they have the same edge angle) (I think a point that gets overlooked sometimes)

- If a lets say 40 degree incl. edge is grinded into the more obtuse primary grind of a sabre grind Endura, just by geometry it has to go higher up the blade than on the steeper ffg primary grind.
- What does that mean?:
In my experience the sabre grind Endura bites better/deeper into wood, cause the "shoulder" of the apex does not "stop" the cut as soon as with the ffg blade (so the sabre grind works a bit like a "little scandi").
So one can have a very robust edge angle, but still an apex that goes higher up on the blade.

(Pic: Apex Endura ffg vs sg, roughly the same edge angle)



2.) Much more obvious: Very robust blade and especially tip for "super hard work"

- I think the sabre grind versions of Endura and also Delica offer some of the most "hard use" blades in Spydercos line up, despite their comparably not too thick blade stock.
As I always say: Especially the strong and durable tips come in handy when one has to work "hard" AND fast, so it can´t really be avoided that the tip for example hits metal or the like and the blade gets stuck and twisted a lot.
With ffg I´d be much more afraid to snap the tip in that (rare, I know) scenarios.

(Pic: Blade and tip Endura ffg vs sg)

[PaloArt]

All very interesting and valid points. For me FFG is as well my favorite grind due to versatility and general type of use of my folders but I can see in what use sabre ground knives can be, perhaps, a bit better performers for some. The only thing I would change on Endura Delica sabre ground versions is making the grind a bit higher - 2\3 of the blade for better cutting\universality... but that is just me and would be my preference, not universal truth of course.

By the way, I really enjoy your "love letters" (as I see them, in most positive way) to Spyderco and perspective you have on different models Spyderco makes.

[Doc Dan]

You make some salient points and those are indeed some good strengths. I actually like a true high hollow grind, such as Cold Steel put on their Mini Recon clip point, and Buck has done so well, also. I prefer this to a sabre grind, though for a survival/hard use knife, a sabre grind is likely the best. For pure slicing, I want a high hollow or FFG blade, which is the most of what I do.

[Evil D]

For me it's all in the details, just like with hollow grinds. If they're ground high enough then you have the same or close to the same slicing ability as FFG but that solid thickness at the spine helps with strength.

In other words, how a Bodacious or Shaman are ground, I think they technically qualify as saber grinds even though Spyderco call them full flat grinds. I would really love to try a hollow grind taken up as high as these blades are ground.

[vivi]

For a while I wanted everything full flat ground, but I've come to appreciate saber grinds more over the years.

Hollow saber grinds are one of my favorite grinds these days. They can have even better cutting ability than full flat for shallow cuts or materials that don't bind up the blade much. I like the way the grind is done on Recon Tantos. It's stout at the spine but with a thinned out edge carves wood close to as well as a stock Mora Companion.

Saber grind are really nice for batoning wood. I like them much better than full flat grinds for that use. The grind creates less drag and a better wedging effect. Depending on the blade height, edge bevel angle etc., saber grinds can even take all the pressure off the edge while batoning, which makes the task much easier on the knife.

I've always felt Pacific Salts with a thinned out edge bevel and Endura 3 style tip are a great balance of ruggedness and cutting ability. My Police folders will outslice them on some materials, sure, but I feel a lot more confident using the Pacifics for rougher tasks, like batoning and prying apart wrist thick chunks of fatwood into smaller sections for starting fires.

For me it's all in the details, just like with hollow grinds. If they're ground high enough then you have the same or close to the same slicing ability as FFG but that solid thickness at the spine helps with strength.

In other words, how a Bodacious or Shaman are ground, I think they technically qualify as saber grinds even though Spyderco call them full flat grinds. I would really love to try a hollow grind taken up as high as these blades are ground.

Two good examples of hollow grinds are the Buck 110 and Code 4.

Everyone knows the Buck 110....nice and thin behind the edge and a splinter picker tip, ut full spine thickness up top.

The Code 4 is about as thin BTE as the 110's if not a little thinner, with a taller hollow grind. For a company known for rugged, overbuilt tanks it's an incredible slicer. I'd carry one more but the slick handles aren't for me.

I'm pretty curious to see how thin Spyderco takes the high performance Delica compared to these two production knives.

[zhyla]

1.) On a sabre grind Endura the secondary grind / apex goes higher up the blade than on the ffg (given they have the same edge angle) (I think a point that gets overlooked sometimes)

This is a difference in how your specific blade secondary bevels were ground, but if the secondary angle and BTE thicknesses are the same the FFG blade will have a slightly shorter secondary bevel. Which if I’m understanding you is the opposite of what you are hypothesizing.

Anyway, the devil is in the details.

[Wartstein]

1.) On a sabre grind Endura the secondary grind / apex goes higher up the blade than on the ffg (given they have the same edge angle) (I think a point that gets overlooked sometimes)

This is a difference in how your specific blade secondary bevels were ground, but if the secondary angle and BTE thicknesses are the same the FFG blade will have a slightly shorter secondary bevel. Which if I’m understanding you is the opposite of what you are hypothesizing.

Anyway, the devil is in the details.

No, I actually did mean and say (perhaps not clear enough...?) that a for example 30 degree apex = secondary angle will be taller ("go higher up the blade") on the more obtuse primary angle of the sabre grind Endura than on the steeper primary grind of the ffg (so, yes, there it will be shorter)

Once more this pic for illustration (apex on ffg vs sabre, roughly same edge angle)

[zhyla]

I misread what you had written but that difference you’re showing is 100% due to how thin behind the edge they chose to grind one vs the other.

[Wartstein]

All very interesting and valid points. For me FFG is as well my favorite grind due to versatility and general type of use of my folders but I can see in what use sabre ground knives can be, perhaps, a bit better performers for some. The only thing I would change on Endura Delica sabre ground versions is making the grind a bit higher - 2\3 of the blade for better cutting\universality... but that is just me and would be my preference, not universal truth of course.
...

Since I do have the choice of ffg with Endura and Delica I somehow like that there is also a super robust alternative with their low sabre grinds... for the very rare situations where I feel that that extreme strength is needed.

Generally though I fully agree and for a universal do-it-all EDC knife I´d clearly prefer a higher sabre grind!
(Though it would mitigate a bit what my first point is: Namely that an apex / secondary grind in a given degree will be the "taller", the more obtuse the primary grind is).

But then: For a general do-it-all EDC knife I prefer Spydercos sabre hollow grind anyway - just like they did it on the old stainless steel handle Enduras (the newer ones "just" offer sabre grind, no hollow anymore).

And going a step further: I think within their sabre-hollow grinds the H2 Dfly blade stands out: I don´t have one myself, but it clearly looks to have a higher sabre grind proportionally seen than the other H2 Salts (for illustration: H2 Dfly vs H2 Salt 2)

[Wartstein]

...
By the way, I really enjoy your "love letters" (as I see them, in most positive way) to Spyderco and perspective you have on different models Spyderco makes.

Thanks for the kind words, my friend!

While I do also say if there are aspects I personally don´t like on certain models, overall I just have a really positive perception of Spyderco.
Shared it often already, but in my case it is really that I knew pretty much nothing at all about Spyderco as a brand when I got my first one in hand (a Delica) and was purely convinced by how it felt and cut and performed without being biased or having a preconception in any way (I think).

Now that I´ve learned a lot about the background, the "ethics", standards and values Sal and the company pursue this makes me enjoy using their products even more.

Also: Creating and maintaining a place like this forum speaks for Sypderco too.
It really is the only social media platform I am active on and as far as I can see a special place and "oasis" in the internet, concerning how respectful, constructive, helpful and positive folks usually interact. Compared to most other places it is really rare here that I got the feeling one is rather trying to bring negativity or has a pointless deconstructive approach, and it only speaks even more for this place that this forum can absorb and handle these rare occasions too.

[Evil D]

The Dragonfly Salt has always made me wonder about why the grind height isn't higher on the larger models that (I'm pretty sure) are made in the same factory. It seems like a deliberate choice to grind them lower. If I were stuck carrying smaller knives that would be one of my main choices.

[Evil D]

The Dragonfly Salt has always made me wonder about why the grind height isn't higher on the larger models that (I'm pretty sure) are made in the same factory. It seems like a deliberate choice to grind them lower. If I were stuck carrying smaller knives that would be one of my main choices.

The problem I usually have with flat or hollow saber grinds is the V of the blade is usually thicker at the top of the grind where it meets the flat section of blade stock. I've avoided hollow grinds like this because they slice well up to this point but then wedge into the material you're cutting, and oftentimes tend to "steer" through a cut. I had one of the original Manix 2's that did this so much I got rid of it.

[James Y]

When the Endura 3 / Delica 3 originally switched from hollow saber grind to flat saber grind, at first I wasn't too thrilled. But it turned out that the flat saber grind was high enough that it still sliced pretty well (for me).

When they introduced the E4 / D4, in addition to the tips being thickened, the flat saber grinds were brought lower, making the edges, and the primary grinds, more obtuse.

*I'm in the process of posting a comparison pic here*

[James Y]

When the Endura 3 / Delica 3 originally switched from hollow saber grind to flat saber grind, at first I wasn't too thrilled. But it turned out that the flat saber grind was high enough that it still sliced well (for me).

When they introduced the E4 / D4, in addition to the tips being thickened, the flat saber grinds were brought lower, making the edges, and the primary grinds, more obtuse. As seen in my own two examples below:



I would prefer that the current flat saber grinds on the E4 / D4 be more like they were prior to the 4th generation, but that might negatively affect what makes the current design so popular; the blades' greater durability over the FFG versions.

Jim

[jwbnyc]

I like the current Saber grind. I’ve used the prior grind on a Delica 3 and sustained some damage to the tip over the years. That hasn’t been a problem with the current grind. Spyderco, in general, cut well enough for me whatever the grind is.

[Brock O Lee]

2.) Much more obvious: Very robust blade and especially tip for "super hard work"

- I think the sabre grind versions of Endura and also Delica offer some of the most "hard use" blades in Spydercos line up, despite their comparably not too thick blade stock.

That is a bold claim...

I agree that a robust sabre grind and a stronger tip than a FFG inspires a lot of confidence, but don't overlook the pivot area. It is often the weakest link, and hidden out of sight...

Their pivots are tiny. That is likely true for the whole Endura family. Something to keep in mind before you stress it because of the "obviously very robust blade".

That said, I don't see many reports of broken Endura's. They have proven themselves to be strong enough for normal knife tasks.

[Scandi Grind]

That is a bold claim...

I agree that a robust sabre grind and a stronger tip than a FFG inspires a lot of confidence, but don't overlook the pivot area. It is often the weakest link, and hidden out of sight...

IMG_1254.jpeg

Their pivots are tiny. That is likely true for the whole Endura family. Something to keep in mind before you stress it because of the "obviously very robust blade".

That said, I don't see many reports of broken Endura's. They have proven themselves to be strong enough for normal knife tasks.

Whew... How'd you manage that!

[Brock O Lee]

That broken Endura was not mine...

I was quite surprised the first time I saw how small the pivot was on the Endura. For context, compare it to the pivot of another back lock, a Native 5. This one is mine.

[Wartstein]

2.) Much more obvious: Very robust blade and especially tip for "super hard work"

- I think the sabre grind versions of Endura and also Delica offer some of the most "hard use" blades in Spydercos line up, despite their comparably not too thick blade stock.

That is a bold claim...

I agree that a robust sabre grind and a stronger tip than a FFG inspires a lot of confidence, but don't overlook the pivot area. It is often the weakest link, and hidden out of sight...

IMG_1254.jpeg

Their pivots are tiny. That is likely true for the whole Endura family. Something to keep in mind before you stress it because of the "obviously very robust blade".

That said, I don't see many reports of broken Endura's. They have proven themselves to be strong enough for normal knife tasks.

I was actually thinking about that before writing my post. I was not sure indeed how "hard use" the overall construction of the Endura is compared to other Spydies and thus deliberately chose the term "hard use blade" (instead of "hard use knife")

But I am fully aware that this is kind of hairsplitting, cause in a lot of situations one could not make full use of the strong blade if other parts of the knife could not take the stress, no doubt

To me personally though how much and how carelessly I can "beat" on a folder for one comes a lot down to tip strength (again, in those "have to work "hard" AND fast scenarios", tip hits metal or the like...)
In that regard imo a sabre grind Endura "beats" most (not all) other Spyderco blades.

Secondly: When actually doing kind of prying tasks (let's say blade buried deeply in hard material and intending to pry that apart) most times and instinctively I kind of pinch grip the strong sg blade, so there is little to no stress on the pivot.

Personally I have never damaged an Endura (actually also true for the ffg ones I have been using a ton and also pretty "hard" sometimes).
But again: I think you are certainly right, and for a perfect folder for all super hard use situations the tough sg Endura blade would most likely have to be implemented into another, even stronger overall construction...

[Wartstein]

That broken Endura was not mine...

I was quite surprised the first time I saw how small the pivot was on the Endura. For context, compare it to the pivot of another back lock, a Native 5. This one is mine.

That's true.

And besides that pivot situation:

While I have no issues at all with the Endura backlock and am certain it is easily strong enough for everything one might do with a folder, the one on the Native just does "feel" 'better" and stronger too