10Cr15CoMoV is a great steel

[sal]

We haven't yet decided whether or not to use 10CR. We're using 9Cr now. If we do decide to use 10Cr, we would not call it VG-10.

We've watched the Chinese take over many industries across the years. To the detriment, in my opinion, of US manufacturers. We're not pleased with their trading practices, but there is a segment in our market that requires Chinese made knives, for the price, so we try our best to design good pieces for you.

As the number of Chinese makers grows and the number of counterfeiters grow, there is always a concern.

To date, we've eaten the Tariffs, thinking that it would get better, but in the future, things may have to change.

sal

[SpyderEdgeForever]

We haven't yet decided whether or not to use 10CR. We're using 9Cr now. If we do decide to use 10Cr, we would not call it VG-10.

We've watched the Chinese take over many industries across the years. To the detriment, in my opinion, of US manufacturers. We're not pleased with their trading practices, but there is a segment in our market that requires Chinese made knives, for the price, so we try our best to design good pieces for you.

As the number of Chinese makers grows and the number of counterfeiters grow, there is always a concern.

To date, we've eaten the Tariffs, thinking that it would get better, but in the future, things may have to change.

sal

Thank you very much for this, sal.

Please know that you and I are on the same page on these matters. My interest in this steel is because:

1 some others posting brought this alloy to my attention as having a similiar chemistry as VG10, if those manufacturing it are being honest with us, and,

2, as you said above, there are some in the market for these knives.

Regarding the Tariffs, I hope this is not over stepping the no politics rule, but I think in my opinion that after all you and your team of great people have done, the government should give Spyderco a full refund on the costs.
Of course that is my opinion as a loyal and appreciative customer.

Since I posted this originally, I used that folder to cut some cardboard and it zipped right through.

Also, I found a decent loup as you suggested in the SharpMaker thread.

This is a cool one: it has a metal body and two magnifiers: one is 10x and the other is 20x, both fold into the same frame.

[aicolainen]

The question here is why. Why use fake VG-10 when you have easy access to the real stuff.

Anyone?

It isn't fake VG-10. It's 10Cr15CoMoV. This thread is embarrasing guys. There are many steel grading systems and slightly different steels are produced in different parts of the world. It's roughly equivalent to VG-10.

It's only in the knife enthusiast world that people have started sniffing steel designations like wine corks and testing them in baguettes. I'm looking forward to the new BATRA baguette cutting machines.

My thoughts exactly

You don't hear anyone accusing Carpenter, Bohler-Uddeholm or Erasteel, or even Crucible (when they were still kicking around) of making knockoffs of each other when they make equivalent steels with matching chemistry under different trademark names.

I'm by far no expert on this topic, but just by having a slightly above average interest in knives the last few years it's hard not to get a general impression that players in this industry have been making equivalents of almost any chemistry that's out of patent since forever, so yeah, it felt a little embarrassing watching this discussion play out among peers. VG-10 was developed in the 50's or thereabout? It's like accusing the Chinese of making knockoffs of wooden wheels.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Wow. VG10 was made in the 50s and it took about50 years to become popular in sporting knives? This is sad! ((

[N. Brian Huegel]

In our experience, Chinese steel clones do not preform or sharpen as well as their US, Japanese, German (Austrian) or Swedish originals. Perhaps the Chinese maker is lying about the actual steel in the multitude of Chinese knives that we sharpen that are marked, VG-10, M390, MagnaCut, S30V, etc. Or maybe their heat treat is not as uniform or perfected as US, Italian, Japanese makers.

nb

[Mushroom]

The question here is why. Why use fake VG-10 when you have easy access to the real stuff.

Anyone?

It isn't fake VG-10. It's 10Cr15CoMoV. This thread is embarrasing guys. There are many steel grading systems and slightly different steels are produced in different parts of the world. It's roughly equivalent to VG-10.

It's only in the knife enthusiast world that people have started sniffing steel designations like wine corks and testing them in baguettes. I'm looking forward to the new BATRA baguette cutting machines.

My thoughts exactly

You don't hear anyone accusing Carpenter, Bohler-Uddeholm or Erasteel, or even Crucible (when they were still kicking around) of making knockoffs of each other when they make equivalent steels with matching chemistry under different trademark names.

I'm by far no expert on this topic, but just by having a slightly above average interest in knives the last few years it's hard not to get a general impression that players in this industry have been making equivalents of almost any chemistry that's out of patent since forever, so yeah, it felt a little embarrassing watching this discussion play out among peers. VG-10 was developed in the 50's or thereabout? It's like accusing the Chinese of making knockoffs of wooden wheels.

What are you guys so embarrassed about?

It's straight from the source. Spyderco themselves say they refuse to use Chinese knockoff versions of steels. But yeah, you guys (who self proclaim to not be experts) know better...

[zhyla]

What are you guys so embarrassed about?

It's straight from the source. Spyderco themselves say they refuse to use Chinese knockoff versions of steels. But yeah, you guys (who self proclaim to not be experts) know better...

Exactly comments like this. 10Cr is not a knockoff steel. It’s a steel grade. Sal says they haven’t decided to use it yet. Makes sense. There’s lots of steels Spyderco doesn’t use.

[Mushroom]

What are you guys so embarrassed about?

It's straight from the source. Spyderco themselves say they refuse to use Chinese knockoff versions of steels. But yeah, you guys (who self proclaim to not be experts) know better...

Exactly comments like this. 10Cr is not a knockoff steel. It’s a steel grade. Sal says they haven’t decided to use it yet. Makes sense. There’s lots of steels Spyderco doesn’t use.

No one said 10Cr is a knockoff steel though. So again, what are you guys so embarrassed about?

[chronovore]

Wow. Wait. Does this mean we may see Chinese versions of MagnaCut?

The Chinese don't seem to have any powder-metallurgy capabilities yet. The closest they have is spray-form. Coincidentally, there are three spray-form steels in use now. Two are exclusive to Artisan and the other is exclusive to TwoSun.

China has produced a knockoff version of Magnacut already but Spyderco is committed to never using it.

Do you have a link to this? The only news I've seen is that a distributor was selling real MagnaCut to Bestech against the wishes of Crucible.

The question here is why. Why use fake VG-10 when you have easy access to the real stuff.

Anyone?

As covered earlier, 10Cr15CoMoV is no more "fake VG-10" than 204P or 20CV are "fake M390". They are analogs. It makes sense to use VG-10 when manufacturing in Japan. It makes sense to use 10Cr15CoMoV when manufacturing in China.

[Mushroom]

China has produced a knockoff version of Magnacut already but Spyderco is committed to never using it.

Do you have a link to this? The only news I've seen is that a distributor was selling real MagnaCut to Bestech against the wishes of Crucible.

No, unfortunately I do not have a link to this.

[sal]

The issue, when one drills down, becomes political, which I would prefer to keep away from our forum, especially in these divided times. While we're occupied arguing over which salt has more sodium or chloride, there is a bigger picture for which most Americans are oblivious.

sal

(I edited out the last part of the post. Too much information).

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Wow. Wait. Does this mean we may see Chinese versions of MagnaCut?

The Chinese don't seem to have any powder-metallurgy capabilities yet. The closest they have is spray-form. Coincidentally, there are three spray-form steels in use now. Two are exclusive to Artisan and the other is exclusive to TwoSun.

China has produced a knockoff version of Magnacut already but Spyderco is committed to never using it.

Do you have a link to this? The only news I've seen is that a distributor was selling real MagnaCut to Bestech against the wishes of Crucible.

The question here is why. Why use fake VG-10 when you have easy access to the real stuff.

Anyone?

As covered earlier, 10Cr15CoMoV is no more "fake VG-10" than 204P or 20CV are "fake M390". They are analogs. It makes sense to use VG-10 when manufacturing in Japan. It makes sense to use 10Cr15CoMoV when manufacturing in China.

If you were to speculate, once they do get precision powder metallurgy systems in place in their industrial manufacturing, what should we expect to see as a result?

Politics aside, the Chinese are absolutely brilliant and industrious people who are willing to invest in new science and technology.

[BornIn1500]

It's only in the knife enthusiast world that people have started sniffing steel designations like wine corks and testing them in baguettes.

[Mage7]

I wonder how many people in this thread refuse to use anything besides Tylenol acetaminophen

Are we talking about identical molecular compounds here? An analog is a distinct molecular compound whose structure is similar but still distinct.

I hope you all don't drink that knock-off dihydrogen monoxide water. Only H2O for me please.

[Mushroom]

Are you guys insinuating that patents can not be infringed upon?

[Flash]

Interested in the steel if it can be made into knives which are a reasonable budget.

Is it a Civivi?

Additionally, My only experience with Chinese “VG-10” was on a Rough Rider wharncliffe slip joint. Which held an edge like it was made from cheese. Awful knife, I haven’t been back to the brand since.

[zhyla]

Are you guys insinuating that patents can not be infringed upon?

Why are you doing this?

VG-10 was never patented.

If it were patented the patents would have expired decades ago.

8CrMoV13 is basically AUS8. Somehow the world survived.

[Mushroom]

Are you guys insinuating that patents can not be infringed upon?

Why are you doing this?

VG-10 was never patented.

If it were patented the patents would have expired decades ago.

8CrMoV13 is basically AUS8. Somehow the world survived.

Can you please answer my question?

[zhyla]

Can you please answer my question?

Whether it is possible to infringe on patents? Of course. I don’t know if China or Japan have “composition of matter” patents like USA does. I also don’t know if VG-10 would have qualified as novel enough to gain such a patent. It’s kind of like trying to patent soup.

[Mushroom]

Can you please answer my question?

Whether it is possible to infringe on patents? Of course. I don’t know if China or Japan have “composition of matter” patents like USA does. I also don’t know if VG-10 would have qualified as novel enough to gain such a patent. It’s kind of like trying to patent soup.

Right, thank you.

So back my original point, Spyderco is committed to not using any steels that infringe on any patents.

I never made any declarations about 10Cr or VG10. I did pose a question about how Spyderco might view 10Cr in relation to VG10. If you feel the need to shame me for asking that question, good for you, hope it makes you feel better about yourself.