10Cr15CoMoV is a great steel

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Sal and all, wow, I must say, so called Chinese VG10, known as
10Cr15CoMov is AMAZING!

I now have a folding knife made with it made by a Chinese maker who seems to have a good reputation for decent quality knives.

The steel has a beautiful satin sheen much like VG10 and cuts like a razor. I tested it on a coarse baguette bread roll and the edge sliced through it lengthwise like the bread were made of butter. I plan to test it on cardboard and fiber and other materials and report back to you.

As long as it is ethically sourced I think Spyderco could do well making some knives from it.

Plus with the SharpMaker we can keep it razor sharp.

Here is what someone else said about it:

"So Chinese VG10 is “10Cr15CoMov”

It’s basically a Chinese copy of Japanese VG10 and has the exact same properties.

it’s a steel with 1% of carbon, and 15% of chromium.

It’s a good no nonsense stainless steel.

There’s actually a whole literature on Google on this steel (and how it performs Vs VG10. Spoiler : they’re the same)".


Take an investigation into it and see if some Mule or folder can be made from it that would do well.

[Jesla]

Have you sharpened it yet? Does it sharpen the same as real VG10?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Have you sharpened it yet? Does it sharpen the same as real VG10?

Nope. Not yet. So far I am going by the light use I mentioned and the reviews of others.

[Mushroom]

From my understanding, Spyderco doesn't like using Chinese "knockoff" versions of steel, so I would question how they designate this one. "Ethically sourced knockoff" might be too much of an oxymoron and a bit of a conceptual barrier for this steel.

[zhyla]

Have you sharpened it yet? Does it sharpen the same as real VG10?

The man said it performs well in a baguette. Do you honestly have further questions for him?

[Bolster]

... "Ethically sourced knockoff" ...

LOL!

The man said it performs well in a baguette. Do you honestly have further questions for him?

LOL! You guys are killing me!

[horzuff]

From my understanding, Spyderco doesn't like using Chinese "knockoff" versions of steel, so I would question how they designate this one. "Ethically sourced knockoff" might be too much of an oxymoron and a bit of a conceptual barrier for this steel.

Going by this logic the whole 3/4/5/8/9Cr family of steels would also be off limits as they are analogs of conventional stainless such as 420j/420hc/440A/B/C etc. Chinese "VG10" is just 10Cr15CoMoV or some similar jumble of letters and numbers. It doesn't need to be marked as VG10, just some not-that-sincere companies mark their knives with the VG10 name for recognizability. But many of the legit chinese companies like Civivi, Kubey etc use the steel and mark it with the alphabet soup name and I see no problem with that. VG10 composition is long after any IP protection

[chronovore]

Going by this logic the whole 3/4/5/8/9Cr family of steels would also be off limits as they are analogs of conventional stainless such as 420j/420hc/440A/B/C etc. Chinese "VG10" is just 10Cr15CoMoV or some similar jumble of letters and numbers. It doesn't need to be marked as VG10, just some not-that-sincere companies mark their knives with the VG10 name for recognizability. But many of the legit chinese companies like Civivi, Kubey etc use the steel and mark it with the alphabet soup name and I see no problem with that. VG10 composition is long after any IP protection

^ This. Many steels are analogs of other steels and not just from China. Here, 10Cr15CoMoV is their analog of VG-10 just as 8Cr13MoV is their analog of AUS-8 or 7Cr17CoMoV is their analog of 440A. There could be differences with respect to manufacturing tolerances or how clean a given steel is but generally, differences in performance between 10Cr15CoMoV and VG-10 will come down to heat treatment (and geometry). Most of the companies using 10Cr15CoMoV today seem to do a decent job.

Yes, there are still companies who will print "VG-10" on 10Cr15CoMoV but it's become a rarity among the more reputable brands. Given that they are effectively the same alloy, it's fair to ask whether that was a question of wanting to print something they expect customers to understand on the blade or even a choice with respect to translation. So I don't get as bent out of shape on this one like I do with truly unscrupulous companies printing "D2" or "M390" on a piece of 3Cr13 or 5Cr15. (For instance, some of the early Civivi models in 10Cr15CoMoV have "VG-10" printed on the blade and I don't think any fraud was intended.)

Coincidentally, 10Cr15CoMoV is used in the better grades of Chinese Damascus. It is partnered with 9Cr18MoV in the coreless Damascus that Civivi has been using since early in their history. It also forms the core of several cored Damascus steels that have recently become more popular.

[BornIn1500]

The man said it performs well in a baguette. Do you honestly have further questions for him?

I'm happy someone said it before me. I was struggling to see how slicing some bread was a reflection of steel quality. It would seem more of a geometry thing to me.

[Mushroom]

From my understanding, Spyderco doesn't like using Chinese "knockoff" versions of steel, so I would question how they designate this one. "Ethically sourced knockoff" might be too much of an oxymoron and a bit of a conceptual barrier for this steel.

Going by this logic the whole 3/4/5/8/9Cr family of steels would also be off limits as they are analogs of conventional stainless such as 420j/420hc/440A/B/C etc. Chinese "VG10" is just 10Cr15CoMoV or some similar jumble of letters and numbers. It doesn't need to be marked as VG10, just some not-that-sincere companies mark their knives with the VG10 name for recognizability. But many of the legit chinese companies like Civivi, Kubey etc use the steel and mark it with the alphabet soup name and I see no problem with that. VG10 composition is long after any IP protection

First we need to acknowledge that there is a major distinction between an "analog" version of something and a "knockoff" version of something. Let's not conflate those two terms here.

That's specifically why I said I'd question how Spyderco would choose to designate this steel. (Do they consider it a Chinese knockoff steel or not)

If Spyderco considers it a knockoff of VG10, we will never see it from Spyderco. If not, maybe it's fair game for use.

What kind of alphabet soup did China assign to their version of Magnacut? Doesn't matter - guess who will never use that steel -

► Show Spoiler

Spyderco.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Wow. Wait. Does this mean we may see Chinese versions of MagnaCut?

[Mushroom]

Wow. Wait. Does this mean we may see Chinese versions of MagnaCut?

China has produced a knockoff version of Magnacut already but Spyderco is committed to never using it.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Wow. Wait. Does this mean we may see Chinese versions of MagnaCut?

China has produced a knockoff version of Magnacut already but Spyderco is committed to never using it.

Thank you for this update.

So what is the best course of action going forward for knife makers to make similiar analogs of a given alloy, to decrease cost so that a wider range of customers can get access to it, but, counterfeitting is not happening?

I will not buy a counterfeit

Ofcourse, as I posted here in a long ago post, I spoke with an astute knife maker who is 100 percent a patriotic American like you and me, (I prefer not to give his name) who has been making knives since the 1970s, and he told me that ALL stainless steel made after 1965, anywhere on Earth, by any company, is only a variation of 440 Series.

He said he has utmost respect for Spyderco, Benchmade, Cold Steel, Gerber, and the others, but, he was very dismissive of any claim that any company or metallurgist has an exclusive right to any steel formula.

This was before H2 but H1 was in existence. I asked him if H1 is only a variation of 440 and he said yes, H1 is merely 440C with nitrogen replacing alot of carbon. I asked him about Japanese VG10.
He said "Our Japanese brothers are simply adding cobalt to 440C."

So you see, in his opinion there are only two types of steel.

Carbon Steel

440 Stainless Steel

I asked him what about 304, 316, and others?

His reply: Those are 440C but minus the additional atoms that make them 440C.

His basic view is that all past, present, and future steel alloys are public domain and while companies like Spyderco have a 100 percent right to legally protect their trademarks, designs, locking mechanisms, etc, no company or individual, including himself, has a legal right to lay claim to any steel alloy, recipe, or formula, because they are all either carbon steel or 440 steel.

He made knives from 440C and for carbon steel customers 52100 and high carbon spring steel and File Steel.

To update it to now, that would be like him claiming Spyderco has a right to the Endura or Manix or Millie but SPY27 stainless and MagnaCut are public domain, because they are only new variations of 440C.

[Danke]

The question here is why. Why use fake VG-10 when you have easy access to the real stuff.

Anyone?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

The question here is why. Why use fake VG-10 when you have easy access to the real stuff.

Anyone?

That is slang for 10Cr15CoMoV

[zhyla]

The question here is why. Why use fake VG-10 when you have easy access to the real stuff.

Anyone?

It isn't fake VG-10. It's 10Cr15CoMoV. This thread is embarrasing guys. There are many steel grading systems and slightly different steels are produced in different parts of the world. It's roughly equivalent to VG-10.

It's only in the knife enthusiast world that people have started sniffing steel designations like wine corks and testing them in baguettes. I'm looking forward to the new BATRA baguette cutting machines.

[Bolster]

It's only in the knife enthusiast world that people have started sniffing steel designations like wine corks and testing them in baguettes. I'm looking forward to the new BATRA baguette cutting machines.

[Jesla]

The question here is why. Why use fake VG-10 when you have easy access to the real stuff.

Anyone?

It isn't fake VG-10. It's 10Cr15CoMoV. This thread is embarrasing guys. There are many steel grading systems and slightly different steels are produced in different parts of the world. It's roughly equivalent to VG-10.

It's only in the knife enthusiast world that people have started sniffing steel designations like wine corks and testing them in baguettes. I'm looking forward to the new BATRA baguette cutting machines.

…. ….

[Danke]

Some of you folks are right. Lots of great deals for you on Aliexpress and Wish.com for nearly as good equivalents. Have at it, show us who the smart ones are.

I will be here on my Sorny computer waiting for the updates.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Some of you folks are right. Lots of great deals for you on Aliexpress and Wish.com for nearly as good equivalents. Have at it, show us who the smart ones are.

I will be here on my Sorny computer waiting for the updates.

Lol.

True story: Years ago a guy tried to sell me a "Sonny" radio, claimed it was made in Japan.
The box had the pic of a real Sony but spelled Sonny and was wrapped in cellophane with uneven edges.