Plain Edge VS Serrated Edge

[Wartstein]

Generally I am bit torn concerning the comparisons you @vivi thankfully did and shared:

- On the one hand I honestly think it is great and very interesting that you finally took out of the equation one advantage out-of-the-box SE has over out-of-the-box PE and that has nothing to with the teeth themselves, namely the much steeper edge angle of the former!

- On the other hand thus the tests do not reflect what - as far as I know - most people "in real life" experience with PE vs SE:
- YOUR PE folder edges are sharpened to 24 incl / 12 per side, while most folks will stick with the 35 to 40 per side [EDIT: of course I meant 35 to 40 INCL., thanks @Bill1170 ) they come with from the factory and would think 12 per side leaves a PE to fragile for general EDC?
- While an SE Spydie already comes in roughly 20 to 25 incl. and this is how most people continue to use it...
- So we´re talking about "normal" SE vs "especially tuned" PE, in a way many won´t or can´t do... and my honest question remains:
- For a general EDC folder: Why do SE knives come with such (superior) steep edge angles from the factory, but PE folders do not if the could also get away with steeper angles? Why do many apparently think and find that SE remains durable and strong with such steep angles, but PE does not?

This is NOT "defending SE" but honest interest.
As a matter of fact I´d actually LIKE to come to a point where I prefer PE again, for the sole reason that this would give me a lot more choices in Spydercos lineup...
I´ll sure try steep PE angles for myself, but am just not a really good free hand sharpener

[Bill1170]

Generally I am bit torn concerning the comparisons you @vivi thankfully did and shared:

- On the one hand I honestly think it is great and very interesting that you finally took out of the equation one advantage out-of-the-box SE has over out-of-the-box PE and that has nothing to with the teeth themselves, namely the much steeper edge angle of the former!

- On the other hand thus the tests do not reflect what - as far as I know - most people "in real life" experience with PE vs SE:
- YOUR PE folder edges are sharpened to 24 incl / 12 per side, while most folks will stick with the 35 to 40 per side they come with from the factory and would think 12 per side leaves a PE to fragile for general EDC?
- While an SE Spydie already comes in roughly 20 to 25 incl. and this is how most people continue to use it...
- So we´re talking about "normal" SE vs "especially tuned" PE, in a way many won´t or can´t do... and my honest question remains:
- For a general EDC folder: Why do SE knives come with such (superior) steep edge angles from the factory, but PE folders do not if the could also get away with steeper angles? Why do many apparently think and find that SE remains durable and strong with such steep angles, but PE does not?

This is NOT "defending SE" but honest interest.
As a matter of fact I´d actually LIKE to come to a point where I prefer PE again, for the sole reason that this would give me a lot more choices in Spydercos lineup...
I´ll sure try steep PE angles for myself, but am just not a really good free hand sharpener

I think you misspoke, my Austrian brother. Most Spyderco knives come sharpened to 35-40 degrees INCLUSIVE, not per side.

Regarding your question about why the included angle can be so much lower on SE knives, I think the scallops help to reinforce the edge.

That said, a lot depends on the user. Vivi is a professional chef, and as such has huge experience using knives. His skill with knives is one reason he can use more acute geometry than most people use, and not suffer catastrophic failure. Another factor is the high toughness of H1/H2. It’s a very forgiving alloy WRT mechanical stress.

All of my knives are 30 degrees inclusive or less. This is just a function of how I use knives. My dad taught me how to sharpen freehand in the late 1960’s and the way I learned gave a pretty acute secondary bevel, 30 degrees or less. This was on blades made from 1095 and on Victorinox stainless steel at 57 HRC. I learned early on to finesse my knife use to take advantage of a performance geometry without wrecking my knives. I touch up my kitchen knives on a Galley Vee at 20 degrees inclusive, which works great.

[vivi]

- On the other hand thus the tests do not reflect what - as far as I know - most people "in real life" experience with PE vs SE:
- YOUR PE folder edges are sharpened to 24 incl / 12 per side, while most folks will stick with the 35 to 40 per side they come with from the factory and would think 12 per side leaves a PE to fragile for general EDC?

The first point I quoted is a very valid point. Some people don't have the equipment or skills to reprofile a knife that thin, others simply don't want to bother. A lot of guided sharpeners don't go that low. So most people will absolutely be comparing a thicker PE to thinner SE, which can skew their perspective VS this style of comparison I've performed.

As to the second point quoted here, I've had no issues running PE knives as thin as 8 degrees per side with a 15 degree truly micro bevel. So 12 dps is actually overkill for me and gives me room for error. I can pry off chunks of wood when pointing sticks without worrying about the edge flexing, and don't worry about slicing into thick, rigid plastics like 5 gallon buckets.

If we're EDCing the same knife in the same steel (H1 Pacific Salt), and you get by fine with the factory serrated edge, I think chances are you'd get by fine with one of my knives. In fact I'd be up for putting a fresh 200 grit ~10dps edge on one of my Pacifics and letting you borrow it over the spring. See how long you can EDC it before the edge stops cutting.

- For a general EDC folder: Why do SE knives come with such (superior) steep edge angles from the factory, but PE folders do not if the could also get away with steeper angles? Why do many apparently think and find that SE remains durable and strong with such steep angles, but PE does not?

This is a question I struggle to fully answer.

The PE part makes sense. Companies grind their knvies extra thick to reduce warranty claims and compensate for people with poor cutting habits.

But the SE part doesn't make sense. You'd think they'd take the same approach there for the same reasons.

I'd be really interested to hear why this is the case straight from Sal.

My testing has shown that either a 10dps plain edge knife or 20 degree inclusive serrated edged knife can hold up fine to just about any task I'd consider using a folding knife for. Sal has talked about running his PE knives around that thin too, so I think he's pretty careful with his cutting habits like I am. Not afraid of hard use, but "think twice cut once" mindset to avoid unnecessary damage.

In my experience the only durability advantage of serrated edge is the teeth guarding the scallops from damage - thick slicing something on a stainless steel counter top. My experience has not shown any other inherent advantage for serrated edges being stronger than plain edges - in fact the opposite has been my experience. I find it easier to bend and roll serrated edges, especially the tips, compared to a plain edge.

I reprofile just about every single knife I buy. Some need it more than others. Most japanese kitchen knives come pretty thin, most cold steel folders come very thick. It varies. I think the only one with an out of the box geometry I've been happy with lately are Buck 110's.

But I'm a total sharpening nerd. Most people, even knife guys, even friends I've convinced to drop $200 on a spydie, just don't want to go through all that hassle.

Spydercos have better geometry than most other brands throughout the full primary grind, but the edge bevel itself is thicker than what works best for me. With some models it makes more of a difference than others. My Police 4 and Military Salt cut nice out of the box, even if thinning them out made them cut better. My Street Beats all came pretty thick and benefitted even more from the thinning process.

So again, yes, many folks won't make these same comparisons, and that's fine. reprofiling every knife you buy is time consuming and people may not be comfortable doing it. I get it. My point was just to illustrate that a lot of the advantages SE presents are not due to the serrations themselves, but geometry.

Additionally, beyond the pure geometry, a lot of the benefits of SE can be matched with a coarse grit finish on PE. These edges grab material like PE, keep cutting for months -after- losing shaving sharpness, etc.

The purpose isn't to say one edge type is superior than another, but to show where the asvantages truly are. Anyone can watch my videos and see for themselves how the edges perform, or test them out themselves.

As a matter of fact I´d actually LIKE to come to a point where I prefer PE again, for the sole reason that this would give me a lot more choices in Spydercos lineup...
I´ll sure try steep PE angles for myself, but am just not a really good free hand sharpener

If you have a sharpmaker, diamond rods and an easy to grind steel like H1 or VG10, it's easy to do. Set a rod or thin book under the sharpmaker and use a protractor (or picture of one on your phone) to get it to around 10 degrees. I've done it before and it works well enough.

[sal]

Hi Gernot, Vivi,

The "rib" between the serrations are thicker. A plain edge reduced to such thin angles does not have the thicker rib to reinforce the strength of that edge.

FYI; I have 3 sharpeners set up in my kitchen. A Triangle at 30 degrees, a Gauntlet at 40 degrees and a Galley V at 20 degrees. I also use the 20 on everything in order to reduce the thickness of the edge when sharpening plain edges. Using a 20, 30 and 40 on plain edges creates almost a "Hamaguri" or "Appleseed" edge.

sal

[ChrisinHove]

Interesting thread.

For me it boils down to speed v precision,

except for slicing either proper crusty or exceptionally fresh bread

[Spyderbot_matrix]

I was programmed to like straight edges over perforated- really goes back to highschool where big wars using a Serrated Bayonet was considered a violation of the Geneva Convention. Over it, I want a spydie edge m2 in 15v in a DLC and Black red yellow “coral snake pattern” micarta

Everyone jokes about the serrated bread knives lol

I really like thinner stock knives serrated like the tenacious or resilience, where maintaining an edge isn’t an episode of forge and fire. I also like the spydie-edge over the combo edge.

What I don’t like, and it’s a preference thing, is someone asking me for my knife and i knee jerk react, say sure then instantly regret it because they’re cutting with the body weight and not the edge and I see all this lateral moving and then they hand it back to me…

I call my knife abuse hotline person Timothy and he walks me through the grieving steps… he’s on speed dial

Serrated so much beefierer than the 32° inclusive edges I use

[sal]

Hi Spyderbot_Matrix,

Don't know about the coral snake pattern?

FYI, Coral snake - red touch yellow will kill a fellow.
Coral Kind snake - Red touch black is friend of Jack.

sal

[sal]

Talkin; story,

My bank called me about a year ago to tell me that I was overdrawn. I told her the payment beat the deposit, wait a day or two.

Then she said to me; "sal, about 10 years ago, you gave everyone in the bank a blue handled kitchen knife for Christmas. I use that knife every day, it's still sharp and I think of you every day when I use it".

I'm guessing that Vivi must have a number of his plain edge knives that he can use every day for 10 years and still not need to be sharpened?

sal

[JoviAl]

Hi Spyderbot_Matrix,

Don't know about the coral snake pattern?

FYI, Coral snake - red touch yellow will kill a fellow.
Coral Kind snake - Red touch black is friend of Jack.

sal

I love these sayings - we have loads here in Singapore that we teach trainee Forest School operators (although ours are usually a bit more salty - “one colour down the back? Get the f*^% back!” Is for Equatorial and King Cobras for example. It is a bit of a catch all as it includes a few non-lethal varieties, but as with most life threatening things - better safe than sorry).

@vivi I’ve been following this thread with interest and am really interested in supporting by doing some testing when I get back to work in early January. I don’t occupy a fixed intellectual position on this at all, so I’m really interested to see how tweaking the sharpening on many of the knives that have been parked in the naughty drawer might reinvigorate them in use. At the moment I tend to use SE a lot as anecdotally it outlasts any of my PE edges when doing forestry management stuff, and forestry management stuff in hours of use exceeds 99% of what I do with a knife in hand.

[Evil D]

Using a 20, 30 and 40 on plain edges creates almost a "Hamaguri" or "Appleseed" edge.

sal

Jazz and I discussed doing this sort of compound Hamaguri with our Edge Pro sharpeners probably 10+ years ago, by progressively lowering the angle and grinding down the bevel shoulder. In recent years I've done this to help speed up the process of doing a freehand convex edge on a Bodacious.

[zhyla]

Regarding your question about why the included angle can be so much lower on SE knives, I think the scallops help to reinforce the edge.

Actually, I find the scallops are more prone to damage than a PE knife. I don’t think there’s any free lunch here. The tips tend to protect the scallops a little.

[vivi]

Talkin; story,

My bank called me about a year ago to tell me that I was overdrawn. I told her the payment beat the deposit, wait a day or two.

Then she said to me; "sal, about 10 years ago, you gave everyone in the bank a blue handled kitchen knife for Christmas. I use that knife every day, it's still sharp and I think of you every day when I use it".

I'm guessing that Vivi must have a number of his plain edge knives that he can use every day for 10 years and still not need to be sharpened?

sal

for a knife dedicated to one purpose that wouldn't be unheard of.

Cutting food is very easy on knives. Being mishandled dulls them faster than the food does. I could easily get years out of a Kiwi knife and those have bottom tier edge holding.

I cut less than 500' of cardboard a year I'd estimate. So the magnamax mule would stay sharp for a decade of cardboard cutting for me based on my tests.

Wood is not very abrasive. Assuming one didn't damage it prying apart knotty hardwoods or batoning, I could see a Mora staying useable for years.

I know a lot of my hatchets and axes have gone years without needing sharpened too. Wood isn't tough on their edges, but accidentally hitting a rock, brick, etc. is what leads them to need being sharpened.

plain edges and serrated edges each have their pros and cons. I've never seen a serrated axe and I could probably guess why. On the other hand if you want to use one knife to slice tomatoes for 25 years and never sharpen it, serrated would win that battle because the teeth help puncture the skin which is the only part that's ever tricky to cut.

Regarding your question about why the included angle can be so much lower on SE knives, I think the scallops help to reinforce the edge.

Actually, I find the scallops are more prone to damage than a PE knife. I don’t think there’s any free lunch here. The tips tend to protect the scallops a little.

that's been my experience. I've also had more issues bending the teeth of serrated knives than I have visibly bending plain edges.

[vivi]

After my last post I got to thinking of my own story, one that illutrates something I don't think gets emphasized enough.

I started working in a new kitchen around 2020.

One item on our menu was house made pico de gallo.

We would dice up about 20lbs of tomatoes per batch. Slice them into 1/4" slices with a chef knife, then dice up stacks of slices.

There was a guy named Houston that would often prep this item.

I noticed Houston would reach for the same chef knife each time he made it, and a steel honing rod as well.

Without fail, he would use the honing rod at least once every time he prepped pico because the knife would start slipping on the skins.

I inspected the knife edge and it was what you'd expect. Factory edge that had been worn down over the years from use, steel rod honing and being banged around carelessly in a commercial kitchen.

Houston could get it serviceably sharp with the honing rod, but between the edge thickness, the lack of a fresh apex, and the lack of care with which it was handled meant he had to touch it up ridiculously often.

So, I brought in one of my four sided harbor freight stones. I took the exact same knife and gave it a fresh apex at around 12 degrees per side. Nothing crazy thin,but thinner than it was, and with fresh steel at the apex.

I finished the edge on the same grit I used for reprofiling - 200 grit.

I showed what I did to Houston, gave him that stone so he could do the same thing, and taught him why that edge would work well for him. I showed him how he could run his fingernail down the length of the edge and feel the mini teeth, compared to the slick feel of our other house knives.

So I watched him the next day. Zero slippage.

I watched him the next week. Zero slippage.

I watched him the next month. Still zero slippage.

I watched him the next year. Zero slippage.

I was there for about a year and a half after the day I sharpened that knife, and to my knowledge it never had to be sharpened in that time for Houston to be able to prep Pico.

---------------------

How a tool is sharpened is often the biggest variable in how it performs.

Similar to that story, I've brought a very coarsely sharpened chef knife to many jobs to use on bread.

More than once I've had people ask me "Hey why don't you use a bread knife?"

I tell them the knife I'm about to use will work great for the job.

In fact,more than once I've offered to let them try out my 120 grit edged plain edge chef knife side by side with their 5 year old serrated bread knife that's never been sharpened.

More often than not, they end up admitting my knife out performed theirs, despite not being a bread knife.

Then the next day I bring in my shaving sharp tojiro serrated bread knife,let them try it, then offer to get theirs just as sharp

[Spyderbot_matrix]

Hi Spyderbot_Matrix,

Don't know about the coral snake pattern?

FYI, Coral snake - red touch yellow will kill a fellow.
Coral Kind snake - Red touch black is friend of Jack.

sal

Yes, the rhyme I learned in the BSA but also they both have red/yellow/black schemes, to which why I want one.

You see Sal, is no actual offering in this color, or knife. Just would like someone to make more snake pattern Micarta, and knowing that rule is kinda a cheat to no mess with the wrong snake.

I liked to catch those Coral looking King shakes back in the day

[sal]

I got quite into snakes for many years when I was younger. Bill Haast and his Serpentarium in Florida really influenced me. I kept snakes for years. He recently passed away at 100 about 15 years ago.

sal

[zhyla]

I've never seen a serrated axe and I could probably guess why.

Eh… did you miss the SE machete thread?

I like SE for EDC but I don’t think it’s a universal solution to all cutting materials. I also don’t particularly care for it in the kitchen, though Sal really pitches it for that. I only have a Z cut, which works great but I don’t like how it feels on a cutting board.

[sal]

I just got Eric a Megaladon Shark's tooth for Christmas. Had serrations on the tooth, 150 million years ago. I don't think serrations are a "new" thing.

sal

[Jeb]

An old shark tooth like that would make for quite the office what-not. If it didn't come with one, a three leg tripod to display it would be killer looking. I have seen these teeth before like that displayed under 5000k LED lights and those old brown and tawny colored teeth are awesome

[James Y]

I just got Eric a Megaladon Shark's tooth for Christmas. Had serrations on the tooth, 150 million years ago. I don't think serrations are a "new" thing.

sal

Komodo dragon teeth are also serrated, like serrated hawkbills. Crab Claws, aloe plants ...

Jim

[Spyderbot_matrix]

I got quite into snakes for many years when I was younger. Bill Haast and his Serpentarium in Florida really influenced me. I kept snakes for years. He recently passed away at 100 about 15 years ago.

sal

I think I met him back when i was kid in Ten Mile River delware watergap, do he ever do stuff with bald eagles? That gentleman brought so many snakes!!!

Can’t keep snakes in NYC (anymore) but had kept Hog nose snakes, Garters, kings snakes and the Ball python. So easy to harm one of those, but such a boop noodle

It would be cool if there Spyderco’s came with a micarta animal scheme option- like the REC shaman with the python design-

Like a central plains milksnake or the bullsnake or the
Basin gopher snake - yeah you can guess which was one of my first merit badges…

Back to Serrations vs Plain edges- I know k390 comes in serrated, what is that like? I have the plain edge and it just whispers through whatever I’m cutting.