China

[HolySteel]

I'm not in the US so I'm less focused on Made in the USA. I trust Spyderco to use a factory that will deliver quality.

The Shelter Cove is cool I don't have a fillet knife and I cook a lot of salmon so that looks good to me.

But maybe take this to marketing and note that a release of mostly China knives could be problematic for the foreseeable future.

This isn't about being focused on 'Made in the USA' knives but, rather, how we feel about 'Made in China'. I personally avoid China-made products. I do try to support the country that I live in, by buying products made here. If I lived in Spain I'd be trying to buy 'Made in Spain' products whenever possible. I gotta admit - I love Japanese-made kitchen knives.

My fillet knife is a Dexter (made in USA). That purchase decision was based on googling reviews and tossing out all the 'Made in China' results. I'm also on the wait list for a Spyderco 'Shelter Cove' fillet knife.

[RustyIron]

This isn't about being focused on 'Made in the USA' knives but, rather, how we feel about 'Made in China'. I personally avoid China-made products. I do try to support the country that I live in, by buying products made here.

I understand that. I also understand no country can manufacture all things. Nor should any country strive to manufacture all things. That would be like Spyderco saying they're going to manufacture folders, kitchen knives, multi-tools, butter knives, putty knives, hoof knives, plastic picnic knives, oyster shucking knives, and caviar spreaders. It wouldn't make a lick of sense.

With that said, I now despise Chinese companies and their whole system. Two weeks ago I was ok with them. Then I checked out this "Temu" app. What I found was a deal on a bunch of tools that sounded too good to be true. It seemed improbable that I would get what they were offering, but I also knew I wouldn't let them take my money. Guess what? After the deal was done, they changed the rules and didn't give me everything I expected. They tried to play me, but I stood firm. In a few days, I got my money back. Not everyone would play it like I did, many will loose money, and the Chinese crooks will haul in a bundle.

[HolySteel]

@RustyIron - Agreed. All else being equal, I buy US-made. But I understand that there are things we do better, and things other places do better. For kitchen knives, I tend to look at Japanese-made first. For pots and pans I look at France. For pocket knives and firearms I buy mostly U.S. - Spyderco is an exception, as, other than China, I don't even look where their knives are made. I wish I could buy clothing and shoes from U.S. manufacturers, but I'm just not that wealthy.

I could end up changing my mind about Chinese-made. But not yet.

[silver & black]

I'm not in the US so I'm less focused on Made in the USA. I trust Spyderco to use a factory that will deliver quality.

The Shelter Cove is cool I don't have a fillet knife and I cook a lot of salmon so that looks good to me.

But maybe take this to marketing and note that a release of mostly China knives could be problematic for the foreseeable future.

This isn't about being focused on 'Made in the USA' knives but, rather, how we feel about 'Made in China'. I personally avoid China-made products. I do try to support the country that I live in, by buying products made here. If I lived in Spain I'd be trying to buy 'Made in Spain' products whenever possible. I gotta admit - I love Japanese-made kitchen knives.

My fillet knife is a Dexter (made in USA). That purchase decision was based on googling reviews and tossing out all the 'Made in China' results. I'm also on the wait list for a Spyderco 'Shelter Cove' fillet knife.

I'm a big fan of Japanese kitchen knives. I own Miyabe, Yaxell and Shun.

[apollo]

My personal reaction to Sal’s question is simple.

As long as Spyderco stays the way it is with its positive and family values i do not care were the Spyderco in my collection has bin made as i trust them to choose makers that have good values aswel.
Lets be honest here all country’s in the world are full of brands/makers/companies that are corrupt and evil to the bone.

So i say Sal keep doing what you are doing at the moment as Spyderco is still one of the best companies in the world today.

[BeggarSo]

My personal reaction to Sal’s question is simple.

As long as Spyderco stays the way it is with its positive and family values i do not care were the Spyderco in my collection has bin made as i trust them to choose makers that have good values aswel.
Lets be honest here all country’s in the world are full of brands/makers/companies that are corrupt and evil to the bone.

So i say Sal keep doing what you are doing at the moment as Spyderco is still one of the best companies in the world today.

I agree and when I really think about it there a few things that make Spyderco great and to me it goes something like this.

Sal the founder and Father is actually still here with us and Participating with his customers.

Very rare.

Eric the Son has grown with the buisness from childhood and is now running things.

Pretty cool.

Spyderco is not just a company but the epitome of the American dream. I would go further and say beyond the American dream and still going strong

Impressive.

Spyderco is also more than just a knife maker, in many ways they are not only manufacturers but a research company not only of steel but what about all that goes into working with steels that laugh at abrasives and cutting tools used to form and shape them?

There is no other brand that brings so many steels and designs to market that I am aware of.

Doing business with China is smart buisness and yeah I have read all of the emotionaly charged opinions and say fine at the end of the day you won't be persuaded to consider anything so there cant really be a discussion there and that's OK part of being American is tolerance for differences of opinion.

If it comes down to Spyderco having to produce in China to keep it going I support that because if the alternative is no more Spyderco then well so long American dream.

We have companies like Chris Reeve I have owned quit a few of those knives but at price tags North of $500.00 each not nearly as many as Spyderco and they have a very limited selection. They are all American made in Idaho as far as I know.

Sorry I cant afford to support that as a hobby. Typically I have to sell there knives to afford a new one in a new steel.

So the point is like this we are part of a global economy America is not and has not been isolated for a very long time.

China and other countries are indeed my friend much more so than the person next door even as they have contributed to making my life more affordable and therefore easier. Thank you all of you foreign workers I will never meet I am greatful for your work.

How can I say this?

Easy the American politicians and corps of the past made things the way they are long ago through manipulation of the masses and on purpose also, not for nefarious reasons but to improve the quality of life and supremacy of the U.S.

My quality of life has been enhanced by the abundance of affordable well everything really, and that is due to other countries willing to pretty much enslave there own population to become a part of the modern world and that is why manufacturing is so pronounced in places like China.

The U.S. is responsible for literally creating the Japan and China and many other countries we see today. This was and is on purpose not by mistake, by stratigic minds far wiser than the average knife nut.

Accept your lot in life and be greatful to have been born in the U.S. is what I tell myself.

The fact of the matter is I dont know where the U.S. is headed but manufacturing coming back here 100% is highly unlikely because our cost of living is too high and the people doing the jobs must be paid truly living wages not slave wages but then the very people who want American only built this or that either cant afford the products or won't buy them.

Every civilization has had a slave race and as near as I can tell we are living off the slave labor of the Chinese, perhaps this will change as robotics evolve.

At any rate the human condition is all still a work in progress that will outlive all of us, might be interesting what 100 or 200 years from now looks like.

So in my opinion do what you have to Spyderco your product never dissapoints and there has always been something new and interesting to buy and use from you and I will continue to do so.

[James Y]

I already gave my opinion about Chinese-made knives FOR MYSELF early in this thread (that I have no interest in purchasing any more than the few I had already bought many years ago). I'm simply not interested in knives made in China, regardless of how high-quality many of the designs are now. But I support Spyderco manufacturing some of their knives there, to serve a demographic of the market that will not spend more for designs made elsewhere, and also to serve as a potential gateway to other models produced elsewhere.

Regardless of my own personal feelings about China-made knives, I have a question: How are people so sure that all of these knives that are made in China are being produced by slave labor working in sweatshops? Or is that simply a popular catchphrase that Westerners like to throw around whenever discussing anything manufactured not only in China, but in many Asian countries?

Jim

[BeggarSo]

Hey Jim a quick Google search for Apples favorite Chinese supplier Foxconn for example paints an ugly story. I recall the news reporting on workers committing suicide even.

My brother has been to China several times and hates going there, he works in the energy industry, power plants and the like he's alot smarter than me and the things I have heard from him are pretty bad.

[James Y]

Hey Jim a quick Google search for Apples favorite Chinese supplier Foxconn for example paints an ugly story. I recall the news reporting on workers committing suicide even.

My brother has been to China several times and hates going there, he works in the energy industry, power plants and the like he's alot smarter than me and the things I have heard from him are pretty bad.

Fair enough, and thanks for sharing. I spent several years living in Taiwan, back in the '80s to early '90s, but never Mainland China, which I have no interest in ever visiting.

My question now shifts to: Do we know for certain that the factory in China that specifically makes Spyderco's China-made line is a slave shop? I'm pretty sure that both Sal and Eric have visited the Yang Jiang factory. Is every manufacturer in China the same? I'm not defending China or Chinese manufacturing at all; I'm simply asking are we certain that the Chinese-made Spyderco line is being made by slave labor in a sweatshop.

Perhaps I'm stepping outside of Sal's requested guidelines for this thread, and if so, please disregard this question, and I apologize to Sal.

Jim

[HolySteel]

I'm a big fan of Japanese kitchen knives. I own Miyabe, Yaxell and Shun.

Same here - I have a couple of US-made kitchen knives, but the bulk are from Spyderco Japan. I'm currently looking for a good 5" Aogami Super Petty with a little curve to the blade. I will check out the brands you mention.

I completely get Spyderco using a factory in China - it's good business sense, and it has been working for them. Reasons for customers to choose not to buy from China are diverse and everyone on both sides thinks their logic is valid. I see no problem with either opinion. Nobody agrees on everything.

[HolySteel]

Sal the founder and Father is actually still here with us and Participating with his customers.

It's really amazing. I can't imagine he thought, back in the '70s, that things would be like they are today.

Doing business with China is smart buisness and yeah I have read all of the emotionaly charged opinions and say fine at the end of the day you won't be persuaded to consider anything so there cant really be a discussion there and that's OK part of being American is tolerance for differences of opinion.

That argument goes both ways.

[BeggarSo]

Yep goes both ways, and yeah like James said might be in bad territory now so best to honor Sals wishes and go no further.

[RustyIron]

Easy the American politicians and corps of the past made things the way they are long ago through manipulation of the masses and on purpose also, not for nefarious reasons but to improve the quality of life and supremacy of the U.S.

Thank you for your well-considered and thought-provoking post.

In my head, the risk is falling into the egotistical trap of thinking I know what other people should do. It's easy to SAY that 'Mercans should be doing more manufacturing, but do we really want that? It seems that no one wants factories in their town. Politicians throw up their own obstacles. And who is going to do the work? It doesn't seem to me that many youngsters envision that as their path to success. If some kid in Vietnam wants to do make knives and shoes and blenders for me, good for him.

[Red Leader]

It's encouraging to see this discussion on the front page, almost 400 posts in, and still open. A testament to the community here. I know it's gotten contentious at times, but still kudos everyone.

That's all.

[sal]

In answer to the question of "slave labor", We've not been to every factory in China, so I can't respond to that.

I can say that we Gail, Eric and I have been to many knife factories in China. We've actually been working with some of the same makers for 25 years. One starting the second generation. I can say that they like working with us, their dealing with us for a long time has changed their status, and they view us as good customers. We've also seen factories that weren't run as well, working conditions poor and ethics in question, but we drop those off and stop relations.

The Trading company that we work with visited me at the Blade Show for several years before we began working with them. They would come to me at the Show and say; "We want to work with you, but we're not ready yet, our quality is improving, but we're not there yet". They said that for about 4 years before they said they were ready. We sent them a design which they had samples made by 5 different makers. I critiqued each one and then we met with them on our first trip to china. We're still working with 4 of them.

After many trips to China, I can say that we did learn a lot abut their Country, Culture, Values and customs. We did the same with Japan, Taiwan and Italy. Social Psychology is a hobby of mine, even some would say a passion. The differences in each Country that I learned in my career are/were very valuable.

sal

[austrian_spyder_fan]

I have a lot of Spyderco knifes.
To much in the opinion of my wife!
I avoided China Made spydercos for my Collection.
The world is not black and white.
I drive a Car from China (MG EV) and its bery good.
Also in electronics in general you can't avoid China produtcs.
The ButtonUp is definately on my wish list.
To be honest, i strugle whith Spyderco prices the last 2 years. 300 or 400€ for "normal" knives are a lot of Money.
Prices whould be another thread to talk about.

So Sal i unterstand you and respekt your life experience.
But for my feeling China Portfolio should not take over.
Maybe also Budget Lines from the other factories should be launchre, for showing cheaper is not equal to China!

Sal i hope you are fine.
Regards from Austria
ASF

[zhyla]

In answer to the question of "slave labor", We've not been to every factory in China, so I can't respond to that.

I would love to see a modern knife factory with child labor. Are the kids producing the CNC programs? Are they running the CNC machines? lol.

[sal]

To be honest, I don't think we're having a problem with our makers. I think the biggest problem the world will have is the value of the Yuan, which yesterday was 7/1 to the $. In my opinion, raise the Yuan, let's have an even playing field and do good business, We'll all pay more so now we deal with that new problem in an intelligent manner.

I don't think the Chinese Knifemakers want to take over the world. That's for the "elites".

I've said that the opposite of war isn't peace, it's trade. Makes for a better World and we solve real problems?

sal

[RustyIron]

I've said that the opposite of war isn't peace, it's trade.

I've never heard that before, but I like it. Trading doesn't make us friends, but it makes us behave in a civilized manner.

Y'know what today is? Just wondering. Remember a while back there was this little island nation off the coast of Southeast Asia? And how we didn't trade with them? And we embargoed the trade of metal and oil? That didn't work out well for anyone. I'm concerned that people forget that.

[fixall]

The major issue with Chinese made made products is that the Chinese Yuan is valued at 1/6th of the US Dollar. So when we purchase something in China, our dollar is worth 6 Yuan. In the word stage of trade, that high ratio figure is similar to the other countries with whom we do business. So none of the countries that we work with can match the value of the Chinese Yuan. So an Italian made or USA made model can never be as inexpensive as the same model made in China. With an even playing field, Chinese mad products should be 6 times more expensive then the current prices.

I hope that helps with your understanding?

sal

I feel like I must be missing something here, so please feel free to correct me where I’m mistaken. It seems like the nominal exchange rate and purchasing power parity might be getting mixed together.

When the yuan is described as being valued at 1/6 of a U.S. dollar, that’s just the nominal exchange rate. It doesn’t necessarily tell us how inexpensive Chinese goods should be. For example, Japan’s rate is around 155 yen to the dollar, and Indonesia’s is roughly 17,000 rupiah to the dollar, but those low exchange rates don’t automatically translate into cheaper knives from those countries.

The more meaningful comparison seems to be purchasing power, or what goods cost inside China and the U.S. relative to local wages. When I put some everyday prices side by side, they look much closer than the 6:1 (or 7:1) exchange ratio might imply.

A couple of quick examples:

A dozen eggs in China averages about 12 yuan, which converts to roughly $1.70. In the U.S., the average price is about $1.90. So the real-world prices are in the same ballpark.

A room in a shared apartment in China often runs 3,000 - 5,000 yuan per person. In the U.S., a comparable shared room averages $500 - $700, which converts to 3,500 - 5,000 yuan. Again, nearly identical once adjusted.

These are just simple examples, but they illustrate how purchasing power works. Prices and wages scale together inside the Chinese economy just as they do inside the U.S. economy. The nominal exchange rate doesn’t dictate what things should cost in either country.

I completely agree that lower labor costs, massive industrial scale, government subsidies, and supply chain efficiency all play a huge role in why Chinese made products are inexpensive. I just don’t see how the 6:1 yuan exchange rate itself explains the price difference between a knife made in China and the same model made elsewhere.

China has historically kept its currency somewhat undervalued to support exports, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting the yuan is undervalued by anything close to 6x or 7x. When you look at purchasing power parity, it tends to show the yuan only slightly undervalued relative to the U.S. dollar.

Again, I may be misunderstanding part of your point, but I was surprised when I looked up some real world examples and saw how similar the converted prices were in both countries, and just thought I’d share.