China

[Red Leader]

Is AUS10 a 440C equivalent? I have a buck 110 in 440C and cant day it holds a edge very long, so cant really say it is something I would buy.

S30V however still continues to amaze.

+1 on the S30V. It is getting a bit long in the tooth, but has performed well for me. Imagine if Magnamax took over S30V in the Golden lineup en masse? That would make the entire line super interesting yet again!

I digress...

(admittedly) I don't know much about AUS-10, but I have heard it is a vastly improved version of AUS-8. I remember AUS-8 from the earlier days and it's reputation was 'okay' for a budget folder, but that was probably in comparison to very basic steels. Ask someone now, and they probably don't have a favorable take on AUS-8, and I think AUS-10, despite however good it may be, suffers a bit from the 'it sounds so much like AUS-8' syndrome.

The 8cr that Spydero uses suffers from this same phenomenon. It could be a perfectly fine steel, but as soon as someone hears '8cr...' all they think about is garbage steel, likely due to the existence of '5cr..', '3cr...' budget steel in the same family as worse steels, guilt by association, etc. If you don't think that, then you are probably a far more educated steel afi. I'm guilty of it too, unfortunately, although I have a cheap budget knife in, can you believe it, '3cr'...and I actually like that knife a lot lol. But it has been a decent performer for rough job tasks and if I accidentally lose it, it is not going to break the bank.

But we gotta remember, in the budget realm, it is a different world. A lot of low-information knife purchasers (no offense meant, many of these are my dearly loved trades brethren) and the tiny amount they may be operating on could be something like 'oh, I heard that's a good steel' or some such. I think in that regard, it would do their budget line well (wherever they happen to be made) to bump it up to AT LEAST 14c28n...because regardless of that steel's performance, people generally like it, it has a good reputation, it will not create unreasonable warranty claims, etc. I mean this is low hanging fruit stuff. There is so much more room to grow, but that would be a great step (in my mind) in the right direction.

- More 14c28n or better
- Compression locks (what Spyderco is associated with...so don't leave it out to hang w/ all the other budget knife companies)
- More Golden-based designs (ala PM3, PM2, Manix 2, etc), but in a variant that keeps people wanting the USA made version
- Maybe mix it up? Do a value line compression lock Native, make it interesting, have it generate some chatter.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

To me AUS10 combines the properties of a "super steel" with the price points of a budget knife. If Spyderco can somehow manage to produce a line of not cheapo but reasonably inexpensive budget folders and fixed blades from it, I and I am sure numerous other loyal customers would be very pleased.

[DSH007]

I don’t love buying Chinese knives in general, but if I really like a design and the designer/manufacturer is transparent about country of origin, I won’t totally discount a knife for being made in China. I have a handful of Chinese Spydercos.. Tenacious, Resilience, UpTern, Astute, come to mind as well-designed and well-constructed knives. If China accomplishes the goal of putting a Spyderco design in someone’s hand at a lower price than the standard offerings, I can generally get behind that.

I trust Spyderco to align themselves with good people more than most companies, but still, you never know.. many of the Chinese companies have (or seem to have) a lack of transparency about them.. which makes me distrustful of them. I’ve heard many rumors over the years that Spyderco uses Sanrenmu/SRM as the OEM on their Chinese line. I'm not positive if this is true or just rumor, but it tracks. While watching the most recent Knife Center “new knives of the week” video I noticed the new SRM Air’s “invisible flipper” bears a striking resemblance to the upcoming Mantra 4. It's clearly a different knife.. the handle and blade shape are not the same.. but the flipper mechanism combined with the timing of the release, I can’t help but go “hmmm.” Coincidence? Maybe. Unethical? Probably not, legally anyway.. the knife designs are clearly different overall. Still, I can’t help but wonder at what point Eric should be given some design credit for the flipper tab. A more egregious example.. Google “Sanrenmu Land knife” and tell me that design doesn’t look just a little bit familiar. This is the problem I have with Chinese knives… Sanrenmu seems to enjoy a generally favorable position among the major Chinese manufacturers and I still don't quite trust that they aren't poaching little design ideas here and there.. with little or no recourse. I'm not going to pretend there aren't seedy US companies doing the same thing, but it all just feels more prevalent and underhanded from the Chinese companies…

Then we get into value proposition. That new SRM Air.. $30 dollars for a similar design in an arguably better steel, 14C28N. Mantra 4.. more than double the price and, as an added bonus.. wooh, 8CR! Make it make sense (rhetorical - I understand why the Mantra 4 will cost more, but I very much doubt someone with little knowledge of knives will when comparing the two)! Interesting place to be in from a manufacturer’s perspective.. your Chinese OEM is also your competition.. (maybe?) “borrowing” your design ideas and releasing knives at half the price of your “value”-line.. it’s gotta be tough to feel good about that business model.. but also, what better option is there for bringing an “affordable” value-folder to market? (rhetorical again- there isn’t a better option)

Ultimately it’s Spyderco’s call and the opinions of random people on the internet shouldn’t matter all that much to them. I do appreciate that they entertain those random opinions. Spyderco is going to do what they need to to run their business profitably and I trust them to do that in a way that is above board. If that includes China, it is what it is. I hope more cool designs get produced stateside, but I’ll also most likely end up with a Mantra 4 in my pocket at some point, if somewhat begrudgingly..

[derangedhermit]

Spyderco only owns the manufacturing for its knives made in the US. Knives made in other countries are made by manufacturing partners. Maybe it is worth considering also using other US manufacturers under whatever circumstances Spyderco deems appropriate.

For one example, I was just reading about Magpul using MIM for the blades of their new line of folding knives. They say it allows them to add features and shapes not available, or difficult to reproduce, by grinding. Spyderco has shown openness to using MIM in the past, and the technology may have advanced since then, so maybe at some point in the future a cooperation makes sense.

I imagine there are other US manufacturers that may have some tech or other advantage that might benefit both parties.

[Danke]

Yeah Magpul sure that'll work.

S35VN blade (MIM) and Polymer handle. Low low street price of $189.95.


Or maybe,
S35VN blade and G10 handle. Low low street price of $162.47.


Oh which to choose! On one hand the Magpul is great for Chris Costa cosplay and on the other hand the Spyderco is just a great knife. Conundrum.

[Danke]

Quick, throw more buzzwords at the problem!

[gk4ever2]

Low wages are one reason why China can produce knives (or any other product) very cheaply! The Chinese government can also dictate how much profit is made - have you ever wondered how China can make steel and ship it to the US cheaper (not including recent US tariffs) than we can make steel in the US?

-----------------------------------------------------
From Google's AI regarding Chinese wages:

Average wage
2021 (annual): Approximately $16,153 USD. 16153 / 52 = $311 USD weekly

Median wage (1/2 of the workers make more than the median, and 1/2 make less)
2024 (annual): Approximately $4,817 USD. 4817 / 52 = $93 USD weekly

Key takeaways
- Significant gap: The median income is considerably lower than the average, indicating that income distribution is not equal.
- Skewed distribution: A smaller portion of the population with very high incomes raises the average, while the median better represents the income of the typical person.
-----------------------------------------------------

Fifty years ago in the US I made almost the current Chinese median income flipping burgers. You cannot reasonably expect Sal or anyone else to match Chinese prices for the same product.

[derangedhermit]

Yeah Magpul sure that'll work.

S35VN blade (MIM) and Polymer handle. Low low street price of $189.95.


Or maybe,
S35VN blade and G10 handle. Low low street price of $162.47.


Oh which to choose! On one hand the Magpul is great for Chris Costa cosplay and on the other hand the Spyderco is just a great knife. Conundrum.

I have never heard of Chris Costa, so I don't know what that means, and don't care.

Neither Spyderco nor Magpul is interested in making the cheapest possible knives, so it's not about that.

If MIM is now developed enough to make knife blades, it lets designers do things they either cannot do or cannot afford to do using drilling, grinding, etc. You can make complex blade shapes that you don't see on the market today. Knife designers would be interested. Spyderco has been in the past, maybe it was just too early in MIM development.

Anyway, that was one example. The thought is that maybe when Spyderco wanted to introduce something new relatively soon, there could be a few US partners on tap, instead of (or in addition to) "well, Japan, Taiwan, and Boulder are busy, let's make it in PRC."

[SpyderEdgeForever]

That is a related question I had. When it comes to producing budget knives, whether in China or the USA, Europe or elsewhere, what are the main costs? The labor, the materials themselves, or the supporting costs like shipping and marketing?

One reason I ask is because as some have brought up in this thread: there are nations that are known to pay their employees well, like Sweden and the USA, and even Japan, that are still able to have a budget line of knives.

To me budget in this context means anywhere from 10 U S Dollars to 100 US Dollars as the final retail cost.

For example, there is a company in Japan that produces fishing tackle and knives, both folders and fixed, that I do not want to drop the name of. They currently have a folder line for sale that has some type of polymer or FRN handle and reasonable quality stainless steel blade for about 20 to 40 dollars.

Am I correct to say that if Spyderco did make such a knife, most of you would buy at least one or two, for yourself and as a gift, even if you buy the pricier knives?

[Red Leader]

That is a related question I had. When it comes to producing budget knives, whether in China or the USA, Europe or elsewhere, what are the main costs? The labor, the materials themselves, or the supporting costs like shipping and marketing?

One reason I ask is because as some have brought up in this thread: there are nations that are known to pay their employees well, like Sweden and the USA, and even Japan, that are still able to have a budget line of knives.

To me budget in this context means anywhere from 10 U S Dollars to 100 US Dollars as the final retail cost.

For example, there is a company in Japan that produces fishing tackle and knives, both folders and fixed, that I do not want to drop the name of. They currently have a folder line for sale that has some type of polymer or FRN handle and reasonable quality stainless steel blade for about 20 to 40 dollars.

Am I correct to say that if Spyderco did make such a knife, most of you would buy at least one or two, for yourself and as a gift, even if you buy the pricier knives?

I think I would be interested in buying Spyderco budget knives if A) they were produced in a less morally questionable place than China and B) if the knife was interesting and offered something different…like a 3.5” Native or a 3.5” Chaparral model or some such.

IF, and it is a big if, these budget knives can still be made at budget knife price, or close to it, why even China?

[Jesla]

That is a related question I had. When it comes to producing budget knives, whether in China or the USA, Europe or elsewhere, what are the main costs? The labor, the materials themselves, or the supporting costs like shipping and marketing?

One reason I ask is because as some have brought up in this thread: there are nations that are known to pay their employees well, like Sweden and the USA, and even Japan, that are still able to have a budget line of knives.

To me budget in this context means anywhere from 10 U S Dollars to 100 US Dollars as the final retail cost.

For example, there is a company in Japan that produces fishing tackle and knives, both folders and fixed, that I do not want to drop the name of. They currently have a folder line for sale that has some type of polymer or FRN handle and reasonable quality stainless steel blade for about 20 to 40 dollars.

Am I correct to say that if Spyderco did make such a knife, most of you would buy at least one or two, for yourself and as a gift, even if you buy the pricier knives?

Absolutely not, nothing says I “care” like a cheap entry level gift.

[Naperville]

That is a related question I had. When it comes to producing budget knives, whether in China or the USA, Europe or elsewhere, what are the main costs? The labor, the materials themselves, or the supporting costs like shipping and marketing?

One reason I ask is because as some have brought up in this thread: there are nations that are known to pay their employees well, like Sweden and the USA, and even Japan, that are still able to have a budget line of knives.

To me budget in this context means anywhere from 10 U S Dollars to 100 US Dollars as the final retail cost.

For example, there is a company in Japan that produces fishing tackle and knives, both folders and fixed, that I do not want to drop the name of. They currently have a folder line for sale that has some type of polymer or FRN handle and reasonable quality stainless steel blade for about 20 to 40 dollars.

Am I correct to say that if Spyderco did make such a knife, most of you would buy at least one or two, for yourself and as a gift, even if you buy the pricier knives?

I've given away quite a bit in knives already. Price was not a factor.

- Native in Maxamet to guy who built my fence
- Sustain to my nephew
- ZT, Benchmade, Tops pig sticker to brother

probably more that I am forgetting.

[BeggarSo]

I think it would be great if Spyderco would have the countries they have knives manufactured in build a knife that truly represents there culture, their morals.

China might be a bit difficult though, how would they manage to bootleging something they were paid by Spyderco to produce?

[Danke]

Yeah Magpul sure that'll work.

S35VN blade (MIM) and Polymer handle. Low low street price of $189.95.


Or maybe,
S35VN blade and G10 handle. Low low street price of $162.47.


Oh which to choose! On one hand the Magpul is great for Chris Costa cosplay and on the other hand the Spyderco is just a great knife. Conundrum.

I have never heard of Chris Costa, so I don't know what that means, and don't care.

Neither Spyderco nor Magpul is interested in making the cheapest possible knives, so it's not about that.

If MIM is now developed enough to make knife blades, it lets designers do things they either cannot do or cannot afford to do using drilling, grinding, etc. You can make complex blade shapes that you don't see on the market today. Knife designers would be interested. Spyderco has been in the past, maybe it was just too early in MIM development.

Anyway, that was one example. The thought is that maybe when Spyderco wanted to introduce something new relatively soon, there could be a few US partners on tap, instead of (or in addition to) "well, Japan, Taiwan, and Boulder are busy, let's make it in PRC."

I don't know if you read the room. They're not making those knives in China because there are no other factories. They're being made there to meet a price point. Bringing on a new US factory would just result in more knives like they make in Golden. Expensive ones.

[BornIn1500]

I don't know if you read the room. They're not making those knives in China because there are no other factories. They're being made there to meet a price point. Bringing on a new US factory would just result in more knives like they make in Golden. Expensive ones.

Right. Maybe he doesn't realize that Spyderco is currently in the middle of building a large expansion. There's no reason to have anything made at other facilities in the US.

[Danke]

Let's not get all bogged down with facts.

[derangedhermit]

Yeah Magpul sure that'll work.

S35VN blade (MIM) and Polymer handle. Low low street price of $189.95.


Or maybe,
S35VN blade and G10 handle. Low low street price of $162.47.


Oh which to choose! On one hand the Magpul is great for Chris Costa cosplay and on the other hand the Spyderco is just a great knife. Conundrum.

I have never heard of Chris Costa, so I don't know what that means, and don't care.

Neither Spyderco nor Magpul is interested in making the cheapest possible knives, so it's not about that.

If MIM is now developed enough to make knife blades, it lets designers do things they either cannot do or cannot afford to do using drilling, grinding, etc. You can make complex blade shapes that you don't see on the market today. Knife designers would be interested. Spyderco has been in the past, maybe it was just too early in MIM development.

Anyway, that was one example. The thought is that maybe when Spyderco wanted to introduce something new relatively soon, there could be a few US partners on tap, instead of (or in addition to) "well, Japan, Taiwan, and Boulder are busy, let's make it in PRC."

I don't know if you read the room. They're not making those knives in China because there are no other factories. They're being made there to meet a price point. Bringing on a new US factory would just result in more knives like they make in Golden. Expensive ones.

Sal gave two reasons Spyderco makes knives in China (post 159 in this thread, IIRC):
"We continue with the Chinese models to serve the market that cannot afford our models made in Golden, Seki, Taiwan and Italy. Also, they have capacity, so we can fill in with some models that we cannot squeeze into other sources."

Spyderco could do more towards developing more capacity, either in-house or external, to shorten the time that products approved for manufacturing actually get to market. That capacity doesn't have to be in the PRC.

One huge factor in Spyderco's success has been innovation. Continued success requires continued innovation, including in manufacturing, and design for manufacturing. That won't come to Spyderco from China.

I think there are two issues that are mixed up in this thread.

The first is that some people do not want to buy products made in the PRC for "geopolitical" reasons.

The second issue, and for me the larger or more specific one, is that it will be very difficult for Spyderco, as a small US-based company, to successfully stand out (or even survive) in a market full of "knife companies" that have a US west coast "HQ" (sales and marketing office) with a staff of five people and use PRC manufacturing only. I'd like to see Spyderco do well by continuing to do, and build on, what they have done for decades. I think that has never been more difficult.

[nathanours]

I personally wouldn’t buy a Spyderco made in China, and avoid buying China made products when I can. I do feel it cheapens the brand’s image and makes it feel inferior to makers that do not make budget products. There are plenty of knives at low price points already.

[northmanscall]

I would strongly prefer to see Spyderco keeping their production within the USA, Taiwan and Japan. I wouldn't mind something from Europe or Canada....

Hi Sal, I’m located in Australia and won’t be buying knives from China. ...

I get what you both mean but still wonder: Perhaps it is that Spyderco as a company and as a whole can stay healthy, thrieve or survive and thus actually be able to produce in the US and create Jobs there right because they also have their "Chinese branch"?

Just something I ask myself, no idea how the situation really is.

I don't think really any of us non-company folks do, but Sal did drop a little tidbit earlier in the thread by mentioning that about 10% of sales are from the value (ala Chinese?) models. That may have even been a rough estimate, but I would have thought it'd have been more, given the prolific number of models and releases. The latest reveal would almost send a signal that they see it as a growing market and thus intend to support it even further...meaning, see it as more than 10% of their overall market sales.

My hope is that with the Golden expansion, and the fall of Crucible, we can get some budget steels in-house with a good reputation for instant curb appeal (like 14c28n), and start getting right to work on a USA-made value line, in the vein of the Lil' Native LW. Heck, even if the value line becomes a bit of a loss leader, it opens the gateway right into the nicer USA knives, since we all know once you get one, it becomes easier to pick up a second, third, etc. I don't know how true that is for 'normie' knife folks, but it does get easier once you get one in hand. People know and like 14c28n. Can you imagine that steel w/ a Spyderco heat treat? Sounds awesome!

Reason I'm bringing that up is that maybe sales from a USA value line would 'relocate' some of that sales percentage from overseas Chinese knives back into the USA. Perhaps with some increased automation and advanced tech in the Golden expansion, a dedicated spot for a value line on the factory floor is possible. Design something that reduces the biggest amount of overhead, whatever that may be. Keep the construction super simple yet robust, with all those great ergos and a decent budget steel. I think it would sell. If you had a marketing campaign that brought attention to what you were trying to do (bring back manufacturing to USA from China) then it would attract some customers on principle alone. Make it affordable enough (has to be under $100) and people will show up for it! Maybe do it in the CBBL so that you don't have to fuss w/ the tuning of a comp lock (in handling hundreds of Spydercos, it seems like the CBBL was a more consistently smooth lock than the comp lock IME).

Could it be done?

Perhaps the Spyderco decision at this time is to keep manufacturing in China. Afterall, closing down shop somewhere is probably a massive undertaking. But maybe a more subtle approach, a drawdown, could be feasible. Start creating room for the replacements now, start getting that 10% number down and see the sales in other regions take over. Maybe the goal is to have the Chinese knives go from a 10% market share to 8%. Then to 5%. Then even lower, and at some point it becomes easier to make the full transition. Asking them to drop that 10% now just isn't realistic, but maybe it could start going that direction.

100% support. Right now i buy the budget line because of the price, not because is like that they are made in China.
A USA/Italy made tenacious for under 100$ would be nice.

[sal]

Hi Northmanscall,

The major issue with Chinese made made products is that the Chinese Yuan is valued at 1/6th of the US Dollar. So when we purchase something in China, our dollar is worth 6 Yuan. In the word stage of trade, that high ratio figure is similar to the other countries with whom we do business. So none of the countries that we work with can match the value of the Chinese Yuan. So an Italian made or USA made model can never be as inexpensive as the same model made in China. With an even playing field, Chinese mad products should be 6 times more expensive then the current prices.

So it doesn't matter whether one is purchasing knives of TV's, It's always much less expensive to buy Chinese made. The tariff's are designed to help this imbalance of values, but it only raises the cost of Chinese made products.

I hope that helps with your understanding?

sal