Why doesn't Spyderco help us avoid fakes?

[Mrj]

I was told Benchmade has around 300 employees actively chasing down fakes.

Their LinkedIn page says they have "400+" employees total. No way they hire 300 for chasing fakes.

If 300<400+ then why couldn’t they ask 300 of them to watch and search for fakes?

[BornIn1500]

If 300<400+ then why couldn’t they ask 300 of them to watch and search for fakes?

Ok so you're thinking they just asked all employees "please keep an eye out". I can see that happening. That's different from 300 people hired to chase down fakes, though.

[cabfrank]

It's wink-wink semantics.

[Doc Dan]

I really don't understand this thread, at all. It seems it wasn't thought through very well (not that I haven't done that). My books get counterfeited and there isn't much I can do because the ones who do it live in the PRC, or some other such place. They don't conform to US laws and have very different ideas about such things. As for Spyderco, they go so far as to give a list of approved dealers so that we can buy safely (except Amazon). Any dealer not listed, a quick check with Spyderco and they can tell one whether the dealer is legit, or not. I don't know what else they could possibly do. They do more than any other dealer of which I am aware.

[zhyla]

If 300<400+ then why couldn’t they ask 300 of them to watch and search for fakes?

Because they have jobs?

[James Y]

I seem to remember sometime back, Sal once mentioned that Spyderco is a relatively small company compared to many of the other knife companies. And yet those other companies' designs get counterfeited, too. I highly doubt that Spyderco has the extra resources to pay hundreds of employees to be constantly on the lookout for counterfeits.

The solution is to only purchase from legitimate Spyderco dealers. End of story.

Jim

[8th_Note]

I really don't understand this thread, at all. It seems it wasn't thought through very well (not that I haven't done that). My books get counterfeited and there isn't much I can do because the ones who do it live in the PRC, or some other such place. They don't conform to US laws and have very different ideas about such things. As for Spyderco, they go so far as to give a list of approved dealers so that we can buy safely (except Amazon). Any dealer not listed, a quick check with Spyderco and they can tell one whether the dealer is legit, or not. I don't know what else they could possibly do. They do more than any other dealer of which I am aware.

It sounds like the OP is wanting Spyderco to do his due diligence for purchases on the secondary market

[Mage7]

Well, as you can see, their customers don't demand they do more, and make excuses for them doing less.

"This has to be costing companies like Spyderco...sales".

The number of people who have insisted it's your problem and that Spyderco is doing as much as they can or should already seems to suggest otherwise, but also consider that when the knives cost $200-$300 or more that the margins probably compensate for lack of volume.

I'll just respond to a few general points I have seen raised without quoting anyone in particular...

Providing a detailed blueprint would just make the counterfeiters job easier

Really? How difficult do you think it really is for them to reverse engineer a pocket knife when they're over their reverse engineering much more elaborate consumer goods. This reminds me a bit of open-source software. Trying to keep how you make your product a secret seldom ever works, and so in the time that it takes one counterfeiter to completely reproduce every aspect of your product, you could have taught a hundred consumers to spot which corners they'd cut.

It's up to the buyer to do their homework

Okay... Well, in the absence of guidance by the company about what to look for in a fake, guess where else they can find what to look for: In the fakes themselves. In the same idea that providing detailed education about an authentic product is shooting themselves in the foot, I think that creating a situation where the only reliable way to learn how to spot a fake is to buy one does that to a much greater degree.

There should be some kind of unique identifier that can be used for authentication

I agree with this one and have suggested it many times, but the answer is always that it would cost too much money, or that Spyderco produces and sells far too many knives for it to be feasible. Except that seems at odds with the idea that they're very limited in their manufacturing capacity compared to other companies. I guess they've found themselves between a rock and a hard place where they sell too much products to be able to pay for an authentication system, but also not enough to offset the costs of that system or even providing detailed information to their customers about how to spot a fake.

All you have to do is buy from only authorized dealers

Sure, and enjoy MAP pricing while being sold the idea it's for the betterment of the consumer's experience. The idea being that if dealers were able to undercut each other beyond a certain threshold, then when a dealer ends up slashing their prices to half as much as a competitor it will cause consumers to lose confidence in the product... You know, the situation that's already manifested from counterfeits. Meanwhile the few dealers that dare circumvent MAP are still unable to actually sell at prices that are that much less, and even the secondary market usually ends up demanding 60-70% of retail, and sometimes more.


Frankly, I don't think it's really that hard to see that Spyderco would do more to rectify the issue--in the context of preventing consumers from be duped when buying on the secondary market--if they weren't making plenty of money despite it. It creates FUD that keeps consumers afraid to buy anywhere that doesn't have hiked up MAP rates, justifies excessive margins on the MSRP rates, and all while their own customers bend over backwards to excuse them and maintain that status quo. It's not necessarily misguided either, because if the situation wasn't as it is then there wouldn't' be as much retained value on the secondary market in general, and then Spyderco wouldn't be making enough money that they justify producing models in exotic materials and configurations that we get to enjoy both because no other knife company is taking those risks. Consumers also favor that because those ventures can not only retain value at resale, but even turn a profit--as much as people like to bash flipping in public spaces, they obviously don't practice what they preach in private. Even barring the egregious examples, I strongly doubt people don't take advantage of the fact that they can buy 2 knives of a highly sought after model and then sell one for 2x the price they bought it at, essentially getting one for free.

Long story short: They're not doing more about it because they don't have to, their customers aren't demanding it, and the current situation leads to favorable outcomes for both.

So my advice is to think less about what more Spyderco could be doing and asking why they won't, and think more about how you might be able to make it work in your favor. If you can't have the tools you want, use the ones available to you. If you can't get information on how to spot a real one, there's plenty ways to learn how to spot a fake. Then if the exorbinant prices from authorized dealers are too much, take advantage of the hype for sought after models and flip some for profit that makes those prices a little more palatable. People will heap shame about doing that, but obviously there's more people doing it in the community than not, and if it's still against your moral fiber despite that, it's really not that difficult to get enough experience buying/selling on the secondary market to spot the fakes, and even if you do get burned once or twice you'll usually end up making/saving enough money in the long run to offset that.

[Danke]

Love the idea of a special identifier. So smart! So well thought out. Best idea ever. Genius!

The fake factories will never figure that out and copy it. You can take that to the bank.

[sal]

Hi Mage 7,

A few of your assumptions on how Spyderco runs its business are not accurate. I think we're doing far more than you think we are and have been since we first stated getting knock offs more than 30 years ago. These counterfeiters are quite skilled at what they do, from their production to their distribution.

Hi Danke,

I don't understand why you think that a special identifier won't be discovered by the counterfeiters if it's being shared.

sal

[Ramonade]

Ask someone who owns a lot of Spydercos, they know the way (or da way, to be specific).

[cabfrank]

sal, I think Danke just skipped the sarcasm font on that one.

[sal]

Thanx Cabfrank,

I'm slow sometimes.

sal

[cabfrank]

Plenty quick, sal.

[shunsui]

A lot of these issues just fall into the "beating a dead horse" category.

I imagine Sal got tired of vocalizing about this a long time ago and has better things to do with his time. I remember some of his rants.

Taz gave a great reply in the second post.

[wocket]

Authorized distribution is how Spyderco ensures we get authentic products. Yes, distributors and retailers mark up the price. Perhaps Spyderco has done the math and it would've cost more to handle retail in-house.

I don't expect Spyderco to publish or vouch for ways with which consumers can bypass Spyderco's trusted partners. Partners would freak out.

Practically, Spyderco looks after buyers on a budget w/ economy lines. Military is a better knife, for sure, but Resilience will get the job done.

@Doc Dan, you've written books? On what topic?

[Danke]

Obviously the solution is to track down that old Spyderco bread van, refurbish it and put Sal on the road handing out knives to purchasers. No one could clone that combo!

[RustyIron]

Obviously the solution is to track down that old Spyderco bread van, refurbish it and put Sal on the road handing out knives to purchasers. No one could clone that combo!

Like so many other online retailers, one of the places I order mountain bike parts offers a variety of shipping options. They offer the usual free shipping with a minimum order. There's also expedited shipping for a little more. The last option is "Hand Delivery by Jeff (owner of the company)." That option is an additional $1000. I expect that time, plane tickets, hotels, and car rental would cost a lot more than that, but it's a funny joke nevertheless. Or maybe Jeff expects you to pick him up at the airport, put him up in your spare bedroom, and feed him.

[Doc Dan]

Sorry, sort of.

[akapennypincher]

If you understood the problem with fakes, and Spyderco putting their effort into stopping there Sale, Making, and
Selling of Fakes, there would be no Spyderco.