MBC Slipjoint

[Kissaki]

I just listened to an interview with Mike Janich from several years ago. He mentioned when visiting parts of Europe where one-handed, locking folders aren't allowed, he carries a slipjoint, hawkbill pruning knife (he didn't say the type, but my guess would be either a floral-style Victorinox or one of their larger, full-handled models). Mike said basic MBC concepts translate to slipjoints, but he trains for several weeks before departing to dial in differences in deployment and use based on the characteristics of the knife.

For those into martial arts, even if you're not in a legally restrictive environment, this seems like an interesting and potentially useful skill set to develop and incorporate into drills. Basic slipjoints are affordable, and it would be pretty easy to grind down the blade to make a matching, dedicated trainer.

Since there's currently not a SlipJimbo in the Spyderco catalog, on paper, it seems the Roadie XL would come the closest to such an MBC slipjoint. I've never handled one before and was curious about the ergos, action, and cutting characteristics compared to a wharncliffe blade.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

K

[Evil D]

If it has a very prominent guard, to the point where it's literally impossible to close the blade into your fingers and get cut, then I could see it being safe enough. A really strong guard at your index finger and a strong enough spring combined would help to keep the blade rigid. It'll never be as great for penetration but would still be great for slashing.

[Stas]

I messed around with the same idea for a bit but gave up. When I travel in Europe I usually bring a proper flashlight — Nitecore EDC25 or 29. I live in the Czech Republic where you can basically walk around with a katana and nobody cares. Cross a border into Germany and only non-one-hand opening knives might be technically allowed (the lock itself is not a problem), but lots of cities ban any knives on public transport or in main public areas. Laws keep getting stricter, so I just don’t bother. I do bring a Vic RangerGrip when I travel, zipped inside the pouch in the bag to avoid problems, but only for cutting fruit or cheese.

Btw Victorinox larger, full-handled models are mostly liner locks, not slipjoints.

Edit: Revised for clarity

[yablanowitz]

The Roadie XL has a very slight curve, but is essentially a wharncliffe. The ergonomics are fine for whittling, but would not be among my top 20 choices for something to open at speed under stress. Bear in mind that I'm not an MBC practitioner, so someone who is might have a very different opinion. The smooth FRN handle is far from hand-filling, and I personally think a UKPK or (if you can find one) a DKPK would be a better choice.

[Kissaki]

Evil D and Stas. Thanks very much for your perspectives. Victorinox's horticultural knives are interesting. The larger pruning knives are very different than the typical 111mm liner lock models and to the best of my knowledge, all are slipjoints. While the XS hawkbill is readily available in the US, the bigger "folding carpet knife" models don't seem to be that well known or available on this side of the Atlantic. A picture is worth a thousand words, so here's a link to a gentleman (Jools) in the UK's Web site that has extensive photos and descriptions: https://threepointsofthecompass.com/202 ... he-garden/

K

[PaperKnife]

Ask and you shall receive.

Far left is a 91mm model for scale.
Various Victorinox pruning knives, all are slip joints.

[Kissaki]

Thanks, PaperKnife! Could you share your opinions on these Vics? I always liked the 111mms over the 91mms for deployment, since there was more exposed blade you could pinch grip to open instead of using the nail nick. These hawkbills look to have the same feature.

K

[PaperKnife]

Thanks to your link above, I could do a quick search there.

Here's the lineup (From left to right)

91mm model - V-edge - use nail nick
3.9060 - Chisel Ground - easy to pinch open
1.9201 - V-edge - easiest to pinch open
1.9301 - V-edge - harder to pinch open
1.9703 - V-edge - easy to pinch open

In my opinion: The 111mm pruner (2nd from the left; 3.9060) is probably the easiest and most user friendly to open, carry and use. Nail nick is there and you can pinch the blade to open. It's Victorinox quality which is excellent but not as highly polished as all the others. This is also a chisel ground blade which takes a wickedly sharp edge.
The Large Black Pruner has the strongest *snap* in terms of opening and closing and there is no nail nick - all blade.

Comfort wise - the 1.9301 & 1.9703 are very comfortable.


Here's a couple extra for comparison sake.

[Kissaki]

Awesome follow-up pics to give a sense of size! Thank you for that and your personal observations regarding the knives. I'm now feeling compelled to pick up a couple of these to try out. At the very least they'll be put to good use in the yard.

K

[PaperKnife]

No problem. They really are great everyday use tools.
They're super to easy to touch up their sharpness using the Sharpmaker. Right @sal
How's that for a shameless plug

[Stas]

Nice lineup! I wasn’t aware of those models besides the 3.9060.
I have to admit, this is the first time I’ve seen a Matriarch look less intimidating than a Victorinox :D

[TomH]

I have the Victorinox hawkbill with the straight handle. I figured it might come in handy if I ever was some place a locking hawkbill was illegal.

To me, the best slipjoint hawkbill for self-defemse is the the Lansky Madrock hawkbill. Once it's opened, it doesn't close easily. It's long discontinued, but I think they can occasionally be found on the secondary market.

I'd buy a Spyderco slipjoint...even more so if it was somehow designed specifically with MBC use in mind.

[Evil D]

Another thought on this, something like a Svord Peasant friction folder that has the long tang that folds around into the grip, that makes it really hard for the blade to close while you're gripping the handle. If a design had this plus a strong index finger guard, I still wouldn't say it's optimal for self defense but if you absolutely can't have a lock then this is probably the optimal design.

[Stas]

This thread got me thinking about it more. Interesting that you mentioned the SlipJimbo — I actually found two models that are available and look pretty promising, in my opinion:
Black Fox Nidhug Tactical Slipjoint (Boker and Lansky had similar designs in the past)
Real Steel Stella (They've got cool slip-joints and even tanto blades — this one just seems easy to pinch-open)

[TomH]

That Nidhug looks very much like one of the discontinued Lansky knives. I never owned that one, but still have the hawkbill.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

Thank you for a very interesting discussion.

For the record, the knife I carried was a Fiskars Hawkbill with a swayback-style FRN handle. It was given to me as a gift by Dane Bender, hands down one of the best custom Kydex craftsmen in the world. Unfortunately, I did a search online and couldn't find it, so I believe it's been long since discontinued. It is very similar, however, to the Victorinox hawkbills.

In my opinion, the advantage of the hawkbill for MBC is that it forces you to adapt your tactics to cuts only. Without a thrusting point, you focus on doing things that won't tempt the knife to close. Wharncliffes are very "thrusty," so I wouldn't opt for one as a non-locking MBC tool.

As always, the other challenge with choosing a "unique" MBC carry knife is a trainer. Fortunately for my students, I'm getting pretty good at crafting safe "drones" from live blades.

I had an idea for a Europe-focused friction folder a few years ago, but the the knife laws--especially in Germany--deteriorated faster than its potential. In today's "safer" world, I agree that flashlights have become the go to in areas where knives are not welcome. As I "mature," I'm also tuning up my cane skills...

Stay safe,

Mike

[Stas]

Hey, All:

Thank you for a very interesting discussion.

For the record, the knife I carried was a Fiskars Hawkbill with a swayback-style FRN handle. It was given to me as a gift by Dane Bender, hands down one of the best custom Kydex craftsmen in the world. Unfortunately, I did a search online and couldn't find it, so I believe it's been long since discontinued. It is very similar, however, to the Victorinox hawkbills.

In my opinion, the advantage of the hawkbill for MBC is that it forces you to adapt your tactics to cuts only. Without a thrusting point, you focus on doing things that won't tempt the knife to close. Wharncliffes are very "thrusty," so I wouldn't opt for one as a non-locking MBC tool.

As always, the other challenge with choosing a "unique" MBC carry knife is a trainer. Fortunately for my students, I'm getting pretty good at crafting safe "drones" from live blades.

I had an idea for a Europe-focused friction folder a few years ago, but the the knife laws--especially in Germany--deteriorated faster than its potential. In today's "safer" world, I agree that flashlights have become the go to in areas where knives are not welcome. As I "mature," I'm also tuning up my cane skills...

Stay safe,

Mike

I’m not OP, but I’m so grateful this thread got a reply from Michael himself — thank you, Mike!

I understand that a new regular model for restricted countries probably makes no sense, but maybe a custom like a JanDelica could be possible? Something like an Eudelica, Eudela, or Eudura based on a Wharncliffe model and converted into either a non-locking knife (for most Western European countries) or keep the lock but have the spydiehole filled with metal — that would disqualify it as an “Einhandmesser” in Germany while still allowing quick inertial opening.

[Scandi Grind]

Another thought on this, something like a Svord Peasant friction folder that has the long tang that folds around into the grip, that makes it really hard for the blade to close while you're gripping the handle. If a design had this plus a strong index finger guard, I still wouldn't say it's optimal for self defense but if you absolutely can't have a lock then this is probably the optimal design.

This was my thought exactly. I think that a friction folder would be a safer option than a slip joint for this purpose. I really like the idea of friction folders in general as a non-locking option, but I don't own one yet. I have even considered asking a custom maker if he could do a design of my own for me, but a Svord would be a good way to cheaply test whether I really like the knife type first.

I have considered the idea of designing something that has a little lanyard loop on the end of the tang, then having a notch in the back of the handle at a very positive angle so that you can slip the loop into the notch as a safety against accidental closure. For restrictive environments I don't know if this would count as a locking knife? But for non-restrictive areas it might be an interesting safety feature if it can be done ergonomically.

[Stas]

Another thought on this, something like a Svord Peasant friction folder that has the long tang that folds around into the grip, that makes it really hard for the blade to close while you're gripping the handle. If a design had this plus a strong index finger guard, I still wouldn't say it's optimal for self defense but if you absolutely can't have a lock then this is probably the optimal design.

This was my thought exactly. I think that a friction folder would be a safer option than a slip joint for this purpose. I really like the idea of friction folders in general as a non-locking option, but I don't own one yet. I have even considered asking a custom maker if he could do a design of my own for me, but a Svord would be a good way to cheaply test whether I really like the knife type first.

I have considered the idea of designing something that has a little lanyard loop on the end of the tang, then having a notch in the back of the handle at a very positive angle so that you can slip the loop into the notch as a safety against accidental closure. For restrictive environments I don't know if this would count as a locking knife? But for non-restrictive areas it might be an interesting safety feature if it can be done ergonomically.

The problem is that European knife laws are not just about whether a knife has a lock. In Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Sweden, France, Spain, and Portugal, a knife that can be opened with one hand is considered a weapon and is forbidden. I also assume that most friction-folder knives can be considered one-hand opening knives.

[James Y]

Many decades ago, many men who used their knives for 'extracurricular activities' just used the knives they had, which were usually regular slipjoint pocketknives. Which were often Barlow, stockman, or Texas tickler (folding fishing knives) patterns. Usually in a slashing manner.

But I can definitely see an advantage in a slipjoint hawkbill blade, if that's the intention. It would also make a very useful tool (which would be its main application, IMO). Maybe Mr. Janich could design an MBC "Jani-Hawk" slipjoint that might have LC200N blade steel?

*Unfortunately, after just seeing the post before mine, such a knife, even if non-locking and at the 3-inch blade length, would probably still be restricted in many countries.

Jim