China

[derangedhermit]

It's a personal choice up to the business owners, for a privately held business.

Before I retired, for a few years I was the head of a line of business at a global corporation. We (my area, my responsibility) had about $100,000,000 in average annual global sales. The only thing I intensely disliked was dealing with (or even knowing about) the corruption, graft, bribes, and government interference that were required to do business in some parts of the world.

I would be much happier, more satisfied, and sleep better as the owner of a $20 million / year company that made its products in the US, Taiwan, Japan, and Italy (or a number of other countries) than as the owner of a $50 million / year company where $30 million came from manufacturing in the PRC.

No nation is perfect, none are perfectly bad, and good (and bad) people can be found everywhere. My experience was it was a lot more rewarding to work with people in countries where the systems everyone worked within were more toward the top than toward the bottom.

[CDEP]

Trying to keep it to Sal's OP:

1. I have no issue with buying China-made. I understand and respect those who won't, but I disagree with their premise. International trade is a form of American soft power due to the size and buying power of our market, and trade relationships - especially with our adversaries - help forestall international armed conflict. Plus, we live in a global economy now and there is no going back. Of course, I prefer buying China-made from an AMERICAN company like Spyderco for obvious reasons. When someone buys a Tenacious they are supporting Golden and all the folks who work there, and I think this point tends to get lost.

2. Quality. I own every Value Line folder Spyderco makes, as well as multiples of every Flagship model out of Golden, Seki, and Taichung. In my experience, China-made Spydies have more consistent QC than Seki models, and several (Tenacious M4, Astute, Polestar, Alcyone) are in my regular rotation along with the best out of Golden. Spyderco 8Cr performs, for me, as well as 14C from most other brands. That's mainly geometry, I know, but that's the point. Superior geometry with less expensive steel will compete at a lower price point. I asked my wife why her Bow River had become her favorite kitchen knife. Her answer: "It cuts." She has some very pricey Japanese blades that seldom get used since I got her the Wilson Bow River. She even asked for a backup during the last seconds sale!

3. The Value Line and Byrds do not cheapen the Spyderco brand. They offer a 'gateway drug' into the world of quality cutting tools that surely leads to purchases of Seki, Golden, and Taichung models. On geometry alone a Byrd will open a lot of people's eyes to what a well designed blade can do. I ran with a Polestar for months before I finally said, "ok, this is great, so I gotta see what the fuss is with this PM 2 thing." Only Spyderco serves the entire market, from price to use case. The Value Line is an essential part of that and I'd hate to see it go away.

4. It's amazing that Sal asks us for our input on these things, and I hope we have been of some help. But at the end of the day, to paraphrase Chevy Chase, he is Sal Glesser and I am not. Whatever Sal decides to do I hope we can all respect and support his decisions. There is ample evidence that suggests he knows what he is doing.

And a final note, for all the Spyderco AFIs as yet unborn, scrolling through this forum archives 50 years from now when most of us have stepped on a rainbow and our wives have sold our collections to buy a motorcycle for their new boyfriends: Yeah, we got to hang out in here with Sal, Mike, and some of the most knowledgeable AFIs going back decades. It was a blast and you are right to be jealous.

Stay sharp.

[Snacktime]

Curious, why? If the Bow River is any indication it's likely to be well made. Spyderco's Chinese knives are typically 2x the cost of what other companies would sell them for but I've not been disappointed yet. I don't fish so not interested in a Shelter Cove but I low key want a stack of Bow Riveres.

There are only really 2 kinds of fisherman. Those who buy what works and those who have to have the best. Shelter Cove doesn't satisfy either group. I love knives so I went out and got something nice for processing fish at home or in camp. For actual fishing chores give me a Mora anything else is a waste of money. Cheap rubber handled knife is the best tool when it can go overboard at any moment.

The dude I go wheeling with has a Benchmade water series Fillet knife. Was super surprised when he pulled it out, he carries a cheap gas station knife in his pocket.

[Red Leader]

Trying to keep it to Sal's OP:

1. I have no issue with buying China-made. I understand and respect those who won't, but I disagree with their premise. International trade is a form of American soft power due to the size and buying power of our market, and trade relationships - especially with our adversaries - help forestall international armed conflict. Plus, we live in a global economy now and there is no going back. Of course, I prefer buying China-made from an AMERICAN company like Spyderco for obvious reasons. When someone buys a Tenacious they are supporting Golden and all the folks who work there, and I think this point tends to get lost.

2. Quality. I own every Value Line folder Spyderco makes, as well as multiples of every Flagship model out of Golden, Seki, and Taichung. In my experience, China-made Spydies have more consistent QC than Seki models, and several (Tenacious M4, Astute, Polestar, Alcyone) are in my regular rotation along with the best out of Golden. Spyderco 8Cr performs, for me, as well as 14C from most other brands. That's mainly geometry, I know, but that's the point. Superior geometry with less expensive steel will compete at a lower price point. I asked my wife why her Bow River had become her favorite kitchen knife. Her answer: "It cuts." She has some very pricey Japanese blades that seldom get used since I got her the Wilson Bow River. She even asked for a backup during the last seconds sale!

3. The Value Line and Byrds do not cheapen the Spyderco brand. They offer a 'gateway drug' into the world of quality cutting tools that surely leads to purchases of Seki, Golden, and Taichung models. On geometry alone a Byrd will open a lot of people's eyes to what a well designed blade can do. I ran with a Polestar for months before I finally said, "ok, this is great, so I gotta see what the fuss is with this PM 2 thing." Only Spyderco serves the entire market, from price to use case. The Value Line is an essential part of that and I'd hate to see it go away.

4. It's amazing that Sal asks us for our input on these things, and I hope we have been of some help. But at the end of the day, to paraphrase Chevy Chase, he is Sal Glesser and I am not. Whatever Sal decides to do I hope we can all respect and support his decisions. There is ample evidence that suggests he knows what he is doing.

And a final note, for all the Spyderco AFIs as yet unborn, scrolling through this forum archives 50 years from now when most of us have stepped on a rainbow and our wives have sold our collections to buy a motorcycle for their new boyfriends: Yeah, we got to hang out in here with Sal, Mike, and some of the most knowledgeable AFIs going back decades. It was a blast and you are right to be jealous.

Stay sharp.

Wow, you make some really good points. I think the most salient is that we are blessed to be able to interact with Sal and crew directly, and generations from now will only be able to imagine. Very cool.

I have heard the quotes about trade in this thread before, and usually I agree, as trade is probably good to stay friendly. I however think the 'tradeoffs to trade' have become too high for us. Mainly loss of manufacturing knowledge, and the mechanical technology leaving us that we have never gotten back. Started loooooong ago. There is no one entity to blame. If we had a way to trade, and still kept our tool and die trade intact, our manufacturing powerhouse, then I think I would have less of a problem with it. I think that this position works well in the best of circumstances. However, I don't think the circumstances are that good, and so I don't think that the juice is worth the squeeze, long term. We have little to no manufacturing autonomy. Chinese Spydercos are a symptom, not a reason, and I suppose it is fair to point out everywhere else where we have let it slide, from computers to books to basketballs. But I still want to try. Tens of millions of consumers disagree with my minority opinion, so I suppose it will just be an 'agree to disagree' scenario.

I'm curious how long everyone thinks that China will continue to be affordable for production of cheaper goods? Has it been shifting as the standard of living has been rising and the percentage of cheap Chinese labor shrinks? It sort of feels like the gravy train cannot last forever.

I do think that the 'ethics of Chinese manufacturing and outsourcing' and 'business survival reliant upon Chinese manufacturing and outsourcing' are two separate problems being discussed - and both are important. If Spyderco needs China to survive, it is a sad commentary on the trend of our consumer demands, and less to do with Spyderco. But I would rather them do it and survive.

The question remains - can we still get the 'budget' without China, and avoid the ethics minefield?

[sal]

Spyderco's Chinese knives are generally kept at less that 10% of our sales. We continue with the Chinese models to serve the market that cannot afford our models made in Golden, Seki, Taiwan and Italy. Also, they have capacity, so we can fill in with some models that we cannot squeeze into other sources. We've also been working with the same makers for decades that really have no control over what their government does.

Counterfeits are another story. As is the low Yuan / Dollar valuation.

sal

[Glock34]

If China to be not a rising economic star many of us would ask questions. I cannot see any difference between production in China, Japan, Taiwan or Italy and it is up to Spyderco to decide what is the best for company to stay alive and keep their workers here in good conditions. So, if you do not like their policy / cannot resist it - just buy knives from other brands without many words, if find who do not use Chinese materials, machinery, tools & etc. This subject is mostly related not to the Spyderco production, but for all goods we are buying.

[wocket]

Byrd and Chinese Spyderco knives serve a market segment. I like that the affordable segment can access Spyderco's designs and ethos.

I think the affordable segment is poorly represented on this forum. We're enthusiasts. We dip into the affordable segment for fun, but we don't really live in that segment. We can choose to spend more on a knife, and most of us do.

If Spyderco commissions more upscale knives from China, it seems the enthusiasts will have mixed reactions.

[northmanscall]

My opinion as a material engineer working in several industries:
I do not mind where the knife is produced. I like a great design. Chinas manufacturing is on top of the world when they want to. If a western company can have influence on a chinese company it is a good mix.

On the other hand italy is very good and not expensive in the knife indistry.

[ZrowsN1s]

I said in another post, it diminishes the brand to me. And that is for patriotic, political, and economic reasons.

[Mushroom]

Three consecutive posts all specifically about partisan politics. It’s almost like he has no respect for Sal's polite request and plans to continue posting whatever he wants. Am I mistaken, or is this being encouraged now?

As a friendly reminder, here's Sal's original post back on page 1. I have just had to remove numerous posts that shouldn't have been posted if we're minding the rules of our forum and Sal's polite request. Please keep the discussion civil.

Hi All,

There seems to be a lot of thought and opinions on China, with regards to knives, especially since the latest reveal.

Some say we are no longer a leader in the industry because of the latest model offerings. (Manta 4, Buttonup, Shelter Cove, Goonie). Some say to ditch China altogether. some say build more in China, etc.

I would like for you to share your thoughts? Questions? Suggestions? Preferences? etc.? Please try to avoid Partisan Politics as much as possible.

Thanx,

sal

[bandaidman]

my fathers usa based manufacturing business was ironically protected by tariffs in 80s and 90s. changes in industry and odd flukes of what had a tariff and what didn't worked to their advantage up to the early 2000s . then had to go to china to survive.

China is a perilous place to do business. changes in tax laws (related to elimination of indirect Chinese subsidies to domestic industries via manufacturing VAT rebates) and 2008 financial crisis ruined him. they had just brought a large china factory on line and tried to keep in going but it folded by 2010

Chinese manufacturers can make most things well and most workers are quite industrious.... but graft and corruption are rampant and the CCP is such a blight on the world I try to avoid buying anything from there.

I have many Chinese friends. This is not about the Chinese people whose traditional culture and devotion to family I quite admire

[SpyderEdgeForever]

My opinion as a material engineer working in several industries:
I do not mind where the knife is produced. I like a great design. Chinas manufacturing is on top of the world when they want to. If a western company can have influence on a chinese company it is a good mix.

On the other hand italy is very good and not expensive in the knife indistry.

Italy makes some great knives as does Spain.
Italy has begun to get in on alloys like N690 as has Spain.
An Italian made series of budget folders and fixed blades would be so great.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Most of the makers are in Yang Jiang, so the city name won't say much.

Eric discussed this with Phil Wilson as the cost of his knives, especially with premium steels, took the models out of reach of many and the beauty of the designs could not be appreciated by as many. Phil's models made in China are more popular.

A clear demonstration of why the Chinese keep the value of their Yuan low?

sal

I believe most of the knife makers in Japan are in Seki City, but I still like Seki City on the blade of my Delica. Just my 2 cents. everything in the dollar store says "made in china" on it, none of it says made in "Yang Jiang". I think there is a small marketing perception thing here, and also would be more 'on brand' for Spyderco to keep the city name on all knives.

That said, I'll let it be as I am personally in the prefer to avoid Chinese production camp.

I will second Red Leader's points about the phenomenal competition in the $40-$80 range. Kizer and Vosteed are setting the bar painfully high at that price point, especially with the compression lock and axis lock patents having expired. If I have a budget of $150-$200 I will be buying a Spyderco almost without a doubt, but if my budget is $80 the decisions become difficult, especially if it is all coming out of China anyway.

I don’t make the decision on China or no China, but if you are going to do China it has to be spectacular or it won’t keep up. The market is moving so fast and the competition in the $40-$80 range is probably the fiercest in the entire knife industry.

If you want some examples, the Tenable Fenrir for $64, the Ruike P801 for an amazing $25, Vosteed Racoon and Porcupine (can get them for under $60), you can get the S35VN AD10 for $70 right now. SRM-411 for under $30. Other new offerings from Real Steel, Kizer, Civivi, QSP, Miguron, Ganzo, Petrified Fish, CJRB, and many others. Many will have 14C28N/154CM/Nitro V as a standard offering.

There are so many non chinese options across the globe at under $80 though. If you want examples I can list them.

Ofcourse as you and I and most others on here know, they lack the soul of Spyderco. But many would say that is subjective.

[BornIn1500]

There are only really 2 kinds of fisherman. Those who buy what works and those who have to have the best. Shelter Cove doesn't satisfy either group.

But by that logic, the Bow River also doesn't satisfy either group, yet I still bought one to take with me fishing at my local rivers and streams. Many other people also bought one, and it was so popular that this second model is now being made. How is the Shelter Cove any different from the Bow River?

[Bolster]

...partisan politics...

On USA forums, I always take "partisan politics" to mean Democrat vs Republican. Haven't seen that here. Maybe I missed it?

Very, very difficult (impossible) to avoid international relations on a topic like this. We live in a world where much of it has been politicized, where international relations are a part of everyday life, and hybrid wars between countries (in particular, China vs. USA) are already underway. If even international relations discussions are suppressed or censored, then that skews the responses to just those who are "OK with Chinese Knives" because those who aren't, can't say anything, lest they be called out for being "divisive" and "partisan."

Let's be careful of divisive politics, but let's also be careful of censorship. I think this discussion so far has done pretty well, for a hot topic, though I've not seen every post.

We already have a good idea of the relative opinion of Spyderco's Chinese knives, as shown in TWO places now. Sal's comment that less than 10% of their sales are from Chinese knives, and the poll showing a similar percentage being enthusiastic to purchase Chinese knives.

[Mushroom]

...partisan politics...

On USA forums, I always take "partisan politics" to mean Democrat vs Republican. Haven't seen that here. Maybe I missed it?

Very, very difficult (impossible) to avoid international relations on a topic like this. We live in a world where much of it has been politicized, and hybrid wars between countries are already underway. If even international relations discussions are suppressed or censored, then that skews the responses to just those who are "OK with Chinese Knives" because those who aren't, can't say anything.

Let's be careful of divisive politics, but let's also be careful of censorship. I think this discussion so far has done pretty well, though I've not seen every post.

Did you have a chance to see the posts before they were removed?

I agree that international relations will likely overlap with this topic but these particular posts were overtly political and unrelated to Spyderco. Removing posts that don’t abide by Spyderco’s forum guidelines seems like reasonable moderation, not censorship.

[sal]

Actually, the tread has been quite respectful for the most part. Also Kristi is watching.

sal

[Snacktime]

But by that logic, the Bow River also doesn't satisfy either group, yet I still bought one to take with me fishing at my local rivers and streams. Many other people also bought one, and it was so popular that this second model is now being made. How is the Shelter Cove any different from the Bow River?

I bought a Green Bow River Exclusive, haven't bought another Spyderco fixed blade since. Handle is to slippery and it dulls to quickly compared to a Mora. Very nice looking design, which is why I bought it in the first place. Not something I want in my hand when dealing with fish or processing meat.

[BornIn1500]

I bought a Green Bow River Exclusive, haven't bought another Spyderco fixed blade since. Handle is to slippery and it dulls to quickly compared to a Mora. Very nice looking design, which is why I bought it in the first place. Not something I want in my hand when dealing with fish or processing meat.

My point was that the Bow River is neither the bare minimum nor "the best". It lands in the middle, yet it is still popular, which you claimed wasn't possible for the fisherman demographic. It seems like the market is plenty strong in that segment to support the Shelter Cove, although a filet knife is not nearly as universal of a design as the Bow River.

[Naperville]

...partisan politics...

On USA forums, I always take "partisan politics" to mean Democrat vs Republican. Haven't seen that here. Maybe I missed it?

Very, very difficult (impossible) to avoid international relations on a topic like this. We live in a world where much of it has been politicized, where international relations are a part of everyday life, and hybrid wars between countries (in particular, China vs. USA) are already underway. If even international relations discussions are suppressed or censored, then that skews the responses to just those who are "OK with Chinese Knives" because those who aren't, can't say anything, lest they be called out for being "divisive" and "partisan."

Let's be careful of divisive politics, but let's also be careful of censorship. I think this discussion so far has done pretty well, for a hot topic, though I've not seen every post.

We already have a good idea of the relative opinion of Spyderco's Chinese knives, as shown in TWO places now. Sal's comment that less than 10% of their sales are from Chinese knives, and the poll showing a similar percentage being enthusiastic to purchase Chinese knives.

Mushroom, TKO, and a few others childishly find fault with everything that I do or say/post. Rebutting me gives them a reason for living and I am only happy to post every once in a while to let them know that I am still here.