What is a "front flipper?"

[BornIn1500]

In the commonly named OTF knives can you define what the F in OTF is short for? I need to settle a bet.

I know the O is short for Out and the T is short for The but the F is really puzzling me.

In the commonly named back lock, can you define what back means? I need to settle a bet.

[wrdwrght]

Spine side - front Flipper
Choil side - regular flipper

FTW.

Pretty sure the COBOL, which I’m eyeing, is a spine-side “front flipper” in the new parlance.

[Danke]

In the commonly named OTF knives can you define what the F in OTF is short for? I need to settle a bet.

I know the O is short for Out and the T is short for The but the F is really puzzling me.

In the commonly named back lock, can you define what back means? I need to settle a bet.

It's what baby got.

[Michael Janich]

Spine side - front Flipper
Choil side - regular flipper

FTW.

Pretty sure the COBOL, which I’m eyeing, is a spine-side “front flipper” in the new parlance.

First, the problem with "Spine Side" as a definition of a front flipper is that the contact point of the finger is not actually on the spine of the blade. It's the corner of the tang, but still on the edge side of the blade.

The COBOL is different. I purposely described it as having "an extended 'tail' that allows the knife to be opened one handed like a classic straight razor." There are two reasons: First, the "tail" is so long that you can't easily reach it with your index finger. Even if you could, that knife lacks the other element of a true flipper that must be present to allow it to "flip" open--a finely tuned detent mechanism. The detent on a flipper must be robust enough to hold the blade closed as the pressure of your finger "loads." When your finger pressure finally overcomes the detent, it must break cleanly--like the sear on a gun's trigger--so momentum carries the blade the rest of the way open. That's why really good flipper designs also include ball-bearing washers and other design elements that minimize drag on the blade during the opening arc (like Hogue's ramped detent-ball track).

The COBOL is not a flipper. The pressure of the detent balls of the Ball Joint Non-Locking Mechanism on the sides of the blade is both significant and constant. It therefore requires constant force throughout its opening arc and does not, by definition, flip. The NAND is the same way.

Stay safe,

Mike

P.S. Cảm ơn anh Thuyền nhiều.

[Ramonade]

Hey, All:

I wrote the copy, so here's my perspective...

The original flipper design was created by the late custom knifemaker Kit Carson and is epitomized by the CRKT M-16 design. It is characterized by an integral tab or lever that extends from the edge side of the blade. In the closed position, it protrudes from the back of the handle. When stroked by the index finger, it opens the blade.

Carson's original flipper--and most that initially followed it--were fairly pronounced and typically oriented at a right angle to the length of the blade. As more makers experimented with the concept, the shape of the flipped evolved--as did the technique of operating it. Some worked better with a pushing motion at the end of the tab, but the tab was still quite proud of the handle and often served as a guard when the knife was open.

Later, knives like the Smock emerged. Instead of a protruding tab, the corner of the handle was relieved to expose the corner of the blade at the top of the ricasso. Sleek and minimalist, this style of flipper required a slightly different technique--reaching the index finger around to the front of the closed knife to index the corner of the blade and pulling to gain leverage. Because the contact point of the index finger was on the front of the closed blade ("front" perceived as the closed knife facing away from you), it became known as a "front flipper." This concept also evolved to encompass other designs that took various shapes, but did not include a prominent tab extending at a right angle to the blade's centerline.

In simple terms, if there is no protruding tab and your finger must index the front of the closed blade to achieve leverage, the design could logically be considered a front opener. Having actually handled and opened the Mantra 4, I can confirm it fits this description.

A quick Internet search on "front flipper" will confirm that the term is already in common use in the knife industry. It will also show that it is being applied to a wide range of knife designs--most of which don't have prominent flipper tabs like Kit Carson's original designs.

If you really want to get granular about terminology, you'd need to go back and consider knives that had protruding tabs on the spine side of the blade--like the Paul Fox Desert Fox and his other custom designs, the Rapid (which some say dates back to the 1930's), and its later expression, the SARCO Roll-X. Since they pre-dated the flipper concept by many decades, their operation should take historical precedence and form the foundation of baseline definitions. Unfortunately, most people don't embrace or respect that history. It's like the term "reverse tanto." That's a "made-up" term coined by people too ignorant of history to know what a lambfoot blade shape is.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thanks a lot Michael. It's the kind of thing that I need to know while being an obscure topic for me. So no matter if the part of the tang of the blade used is on the spine corner or "edge" corner, it's a frontflipper.

[Michael Janich]

Thanks a lot Michael. It's the kind of thing that I need to know while being an obscure topic for me. So no matter if the part of the tang of the blade used is on the spine corner or "edge" corner, it's a front flipper.

Actually, no. The contact point that constitutes the "flipper" is always going to be on the edge side of the blade. In knives like the Ikuchi and the "Thumb Glide" system used on Cold Steel UltraLocks in the mid-1990's, the jimping wraps around the radius of the tang, but the functional part is still on the edge side. To gain leverage to open a blade, the contact point must be to the right of the pivot pin, if the closed knife is viewed butt toward you, spine of the closed blade facing left.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Ramonade]

Thanks a lot Michael. It's the kind of thing that I need to know while being an obscure topic for me. So no matter if the part of the tang of the blade used is on the spine corner or "edge" corner, it's a front flipper.

Actually, no. The contact point that constitutes the "flipper" is always going to be on the edge side of the blade. In knives like the Ikuchi and the "Thumb Glide" system used on Cold Steel UltraLocks in the mid-1990's, the jimping wraps around the radius of the tang, but the functional part is still on the edge side. To gain leverage to open a blade, the contact point must be to the right of the pivot pin, if the closed knife is viewed butt toward you, spine of the closed blade facing left.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thanks again, then how would you refer to my folders mean of opening ? In France every knifemaker calls this a frontflipper, so I'll have to keep calling it that there. However, I'd like to know for my own culture !

[Wallach]

I've never heard anyone refer to the flipper on a Smock a front flipper, including Ken (nor is it called that in Spyderco's own copy on the page for that knife). In fact I've never seen anyone attempt to define a flipper that was behind the pivot as a front flipper until this thread.

[ladybug93]

I've never heard anyone refer to the flipper on a Smock a front flipper, including Ken (nor is it called that in Spyderco's own copy on the page for that knife). In fact I've never seen anyone attempt to define a flipper that was behind the pivot as a front flipper until this thread.

that's because it's just a silly mistake that we're really reaching to turn into the biggest scandal since the idea of the earth being a globe.

[RyanY]

I've never heard anyone refer to the flipper on a Smock a front flipper, including Ken (nor is it called that in Spyderco's own copy on the page for that knife). In fact, I've never seen anyone attempt to define a flipper that was behind the pivot as a front flipper until this thread.

Agreed. I have all the respect in the world for Michael Janich, but I think the smock is just a regular flipper. Or a flipper with a minimalistic tab. A front flipper has the protrusion or actuation point on the spine side of the blade, or at least the contact point must be to the left of the pivot pin, if the closed knife is viewed butt toward you, spine of the closed blade facing left. A front flipper can be opened in a BIC lighter motion with the thumb.

Here is another example for reference.

I don't know of any spyderco front flippers.

[Mushroom]

I definitely would not refer to the flipper on the Mantra as a front flipper. To me the whole point of separating something as a front flipper is that it has an intentionally designed flipper on the blade spine rather than the tang (which then puts the tension point to break the detent in front of the pivot rather than directly above or behind it).

More or less, that's how I had always thought of it as well.

I would not call it a front flipper either. Here's a NCIS season 4 level recreation here :



That's how I refer to these, back being what I call a flipper knife and that's all. The front being where the edge is facing. And about every other brands refers to them the same way.

The top flippers aren't too common. I remember seeing one with an antenna, it was so long it seemed like you could listen the the radio with it.

PS : I'm not right or wrong, that's how I roll that's it

PS 2 : great console

PS3 : yes I could have used the Mantra 4 picture instead of drawing this awful mess, but that's not fun !

Thanks for sharing the illustration! I like the third distinction for a top flipper.

I think it is amazing that we are having this conversation but after seeing the responses I understand why we need to. And, I would like to add, that @Mushroom has displayed wonderful humility and patience in this conversation.

On a fixed blade these directional terms are a bit simpler because the blade isn't rotating 180 degrees on an axis. However, I think (I hope) that most everyone agrees that the sharp side of the blade is the edge, and the side opposite of that is the spine. With those things established I would propose to define the front of the handle as the side that is on the same side as the sharp edge when the blade is open and it is the side of the handle that the edge of the blade enters when it folds shut. The back of the handle is the side of the handle that is contiguous with the spine of the blade when opened. This is also the side of the handle with the button to actuate a back lock such as a delica.

So, I believe that a front flipper has the flipper tab attached to the spine of the blade and a standard flipper has the tab attached to the edge side of the blade. What this means is that, when closed, a front flipper tab will protrude from the front of the handle along with the spydie hole and other parts of the blade spine in the closed position. A traditional flipper tab will protrude through an opening in the back of the handle, on the same side as the back lock's actuator. When a traditional flipper is opened then the tab is typically exposed on the front side of the handle in the choil/ricasso area. Meanwhile front flippers, because they are fixed to the spine of the knife, are usually designed to flow into the back of the handle when opened. This tendency of front flippers to have their flipper tab hidden when opened is actually also exhibited by the mantra 4 having it's back flipper so small that it flows into the front of the handle when open. However, this is a tendency of front flippers, and not a defining, required, or exclusive feature. The mantra 4 proves that a traditional flipper, if minimal in protrusion, can be mostly hidden when open but that doesn't make it a front flipper.

All of this is a potentially overly detailed way of saying that I agree with this image:


and I also agree with this image:



And in conclusion I think it was a simple typo or misunderstanding in the reveal catalogue. If Spyderco is looking to redefine the word front flipper then I will respectfully disagree and suggest that the entire knife industry as I am aware of it defines a front flipper as something that the mantra 4 is not, but they are free to call it what they want. I will never refer to the mantra 4 as a front flipper unless coerced.

Thanks Ryan! I appreciate the kind words and thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said. Very well put and from my perspective there definitely seems to be a disconnect between how Spyderco is using the term and how the industry has used it in the past. I'm still learning though.

Hey, All:

I wrote the copy, so here's my perspective...

The original flipper design was created by the late custom knifemaker Kit Carson and is epitomized by the CRKT M-16 design. It is characterized by an integral tab or lever that extends from the edge side of the blade. In the closed position, it protrudes from the back of the handle. When stroked by the index finger, it opens the blade.

Carson's original flipper--and most that initially followed it--were fairly pronounced and typically oriented at a right angle to the length of the blade. As more makers experimented with the concept, the shape of the flipped evolved--as did the technique of operating it. Some worked better with a pushing motion at the end of the tab, but the tab was still quite proud of the handle and often served as a guard when the knife was open.

Later, knives like the Smock emerged. Instead of a protruding tab, the corner of the handle was relieved to expose the corner of the blade at the top of the ricasso. Sleek and minimalist, this style of flipper required a slightly different technique--reaching the index finger around to the front of the closed knife to index the corner of the blade and pulling to gain leverage. Because the contact point of the index finger was on the front of the closed blade ("front" perceived as the closed knife facing away from you), it became known as a "front flipper." This concept also evolved to encompass other designs that took various shapes, but did not include a prominent tab extending at a right angle to the blade's centerline.

In simple terms, if there is no protruding tab and your finger must index the front of the closed blade to achieve leverage, the design could logically be considered a front opener. Having actually handled and opened the Mantra 4, I can confirm it fits this description.

A quick Internet search on "front flipper" will confirm that the term is already in common use in the knife industry. It will also show that it is being applied to a wide range of knife designs--most of which don't have prominent flipper tabs like Kit Carson's original designs.

If you really want to get granular about terminology, you'd need to go back and consider knives that had protruding tabs on the spine side of the blade--like the Paul Fox Desert Fox and his other custom designs, the Rapid (which some say dates back to the 1930's), and its later expression, the SARCO Roll-X. Since they pre-dated the flipper concept by many decades, their operation should take historical precedence and form the foundation of baseline definitions. Unfortunately, most people don't embrace or respect that history. It's like the term "reverse tanto." That's a "made-up" term coined by people too ignorant of history to know what a lambfoot blade shape is.

Stay safe,

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thank you for chiming in and providing some very useful info!

In the commonly named OTF knives can you define what the F in OTF is short for? I need to settle a bet.

I know the O is short for Out and the T is short for The but the F is really puzzling me.

In the commonly named back lock, can you define what back means? I need to settle a bet.

Thanks a lot Michael. It's the kind of thing that I need to know while being an obscure topic for me. So no matter if the part of the tang of the blade used is on the spine corner or "edge" corner, it's a front flipper.

Actually, no. The contact point that constitutes the "flipper" is always going to be on the edge side of the blade. In knives like the Ikuchi and the "Thumb Glide" system used on Cold Steel UltraLocks in the mid-1990's, the jimping wraps around the radius of the tang, but the functional part is still on the edge side. To gain leverage to open a blade, the contact point must be to the right of the pivot pin, if the closed knife is viewed butt toward you, spine of the closed blade facing left.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thanks again, then how would you refer to my folders mean of opening ? In France every knifemaker calls this a frontflipper, so I'll have to keep calling it that there. However, I'd like to know for my own culture !

I would also be curious to know how Spyderco would classify that kind of flipper as well. From my prior understanding, that is what I have always known a front flipper to be as well but it seems as though there might be another more accurate term to describe it.

I've never heard anyone refer to the flipper on a Smock a front flipper, including Ken (nor is it called that in Spyderco's own copy on the page for that knife). In fact I've never seen anyone attempt to define a flipper that was behind the pivot as a front flipper until this thread.

Same here. I would not have called the Smock a front flipper. From the sounds of it though, I may not have had a full understanding of the term "front flipper."

I've never heard anyone refer to the flipper on a Smock a front flipper, including Ken (nor is it called that in Spyderco's own copy on the page for that knife). In fact I've never seen anyone attempt to define a flipper that was behind the pivot as a front flipper until this thread.

that's because it's just a silly mistake that we're really reaching to turn into the biggest scandal since the idea of the earth being a globe.

Just trying to learn.

I agree that there seems to be an oversight somewhere though. I think it could be possible that the industry’s common understanding of the term front flipper may have been misapplied over time.

[Mrj]

This is exactly how I see Nick with this thread. Best thread ever!!!!!!

[Mushroom]

This is exactly how I see Nick with this thread. Best thread ever!!!!!!

You must excuse me...

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

Since this thread was launched, I've done a lot of research into the terminology Spyderco has historically used both officially and in-house. I've also researched the terms and trends used by the rest of of the industry--especially those used to describe design features that are not currently present on any Spyderco products. I also went back and reviewed interviews with Kevin Smock to see if there were any specific terminological references that would be helpful.

In the Smock Product Information Guide (PIG), I referred to the Smock-style flipper as a "forward-positioned" flipper. In his interview, he termed it a "corner flipper," and differentiated it from a "side flipper," like Kit Carson's original design. In-house, both it and the Mantra 4 were often called "front flippers." As I recall, the Ikuchi sometimes was also.

Meanwhile, the rest of the industry has been developing designs that flip using leverage generated by a purchase on the spine side of the closed blade. I have always associated that type of opening with traditional one-hand openers, like the Japanese higonokami, friction folders, and straight razors. While the traditional designs required sustained opening pressure, with the addition of pivot bearings and detents, this style of opener has become "flippable" and has become widely known by the term "front flipper."

Based on the increasingly common usage of that term, my choice of the term "front flipper" to describe the Mantra 4's flipper was inaccurate. I apologize for any confusion that may have caused. I have asked Spyderco's Management Team to decide what preferred term they would like to use to describe the Mantra 4's flipper so we can use that term moving forward.

Thank you all for your insights and patience in sorting this out.

Stay safe,

Mike

[riclaw]

Thanks, Mike. You're a class act.

[Fireman]

Flipper?

IMG_2190.jpeg

****! You beat me too it.
A spatula is technically a front flipper too.
I want a knife where if you use the dolphin nose shaped flipper, it makes dolphin noises. E eee e eee ee eee e e ee eee
Maybe might need a dolphin handled butterfly knife too.

[Paul Ardbeg]

It's all a tempest in a teacup as they say in UK. Still it was a fun discussion

Really appreciate that you take the time to reply in this topic Mike! Indeed a class act

[RyanY]

...
Thank you all for your insights and patience in sorting this out.

Stay safe,

Mike

This and many other examples are why you continue to have my utmost respect. The term itself is a relatively trivial matter. Still, overall, the cordial discussion and willingness by many parties to engage in legitimate discourse about terms and definitions speaks volumes to the kinds of people who hang out here. At first, I was skeptical of the utility of this discussion, but I genuinely learned several things about the history of one-handed knife openers and their terms. I see the heritage of what is now called the front flipper in those traditional friction folders. As you point out, the detent and ball bearings change things slightly, but the design origin is clearly connected. I had never really thought deeply about the difference in terminology needed between a flipper/ side flipper and the more forward-positioned flipper on the smock and mantra.

Thank you for the additional history and background, and thank you for putting up with us, Mike!

[Larry_Mott]

Elimination question: What do you call this opening mechanism? :)

[Synov]

Elimination question: What do you call this opening mechanism? :)

La molette