8Cr Alternative

[WilliamMunny]

With the release of the Mantra and ButtonUp I have noticed a lot of people put off by the steel. I love the look of these and it’s great to see Spyderco putting out nice sub $100 knives, but like many not crazy about 8Cr.

Realistically how much would it add to the cost of a knife to replace 8Cr with a budget alternative like VG-10 or BD1N? If it was a $5-$10 difference I think most knife buyers would be happier with those steels.

Maybe Sal can expand on this but once I think he said it was expensive to get steels like VG-10 / BD1N to China where the budget line of knives are made.

In Spyderco I trust but 8Cr, even to keep cost low, just doesn’t seem to live up to a Spyderco buyer’s expectations.

Edit: Or does 8Cr perform just as well or better as something like e VG-10 / BD1N for a lot less money?

[Scandi Grind]

This is speculation on my part, but I imagine using an imported steel would drive up the cost a bit more than $5-$10. 8cr is locally made Chinese steel, but getting VG-10 from Japan, or BD1-N from the US I am thinking would be a price bump of closer to $30 maybe? I'd actually be curious to know what the price increase would look like because I am really just guessing.

At this point, if I am buying a Chinese made knife anyway, I don't mind a Chinese steel so long as the heat treat is well done, which Spyders usually are. I could imagine stepping up to 10cr perhaps if you wanted an upgrade, but honestly I don't think an imported steel appeals to me much over a Chinese steel equivalent. That's just me though, I'd rather keep things more affordable if I'm buying Chinese made. That and 8cr pretty much suits my use case anyway.

[Mushroom]

Using the Tenacious as an example -

8Cr13MoV FRN Tenacious = $56.25 MAP
S35VN FRN Tenacious = $120.00 - About 113.33% increase for S35vn.

G10 8C413Mov Tenacious = $64.50
G10 M4 Tenacious = $142.50 - About 120.93% increase for M4.

I understand it's not trendy Magnacut but what is it about 8Cr13MoV that makes people so averse to it?

[yablanowitz]

You answered your own question. It's not trendy Magnacut.

[WilliamMunny]

Using the Tenacious as an example -

8Cr13MoV FRN Tenacious = $56.25 MAP
S35VN FRN Tenacious = $120.00 - About 113.33% increase for S35vn.

G10 8C413Mov Tenacious = $64.50
G10 M4 Tenacious = $142.50 - About 120.93% increase for M4.

I understand it's not trendy Magnacut but what is it about 8Cr13MoV that makes people so averse to it?

Those are definitely huge price jumps, but I am curious if a BD1N Tenacious would be closer to 8Cr at $56 or S35VN at $120. Maybe 8Cr is just that much ridiculously cheaper than anything else when made in China.

[zhyla]

what is it about 8Cr13MoV that makes people so averse to it?

The budget knife world long moved on from that steel. Honestly I think D2 is a better budget choice despite its lower stain resistance.

8Cr works totally fine for me.

Whats this about an 8Cr Mantra???

[zhyla]

Ok just caught up. What a strange thing to do. The old Mantras were titanium handled flippers. Strange to reuse that product name on a non-flipper. Looks like an interesting design, always happy to see some non-Tenacious knives from China.

[Spyderfreek]

Using the Tenacious as an example -

8Cr13MoV FRN Tenacious = $56.25 MAP
S35VN FRN Tenacious = $120.00 - About 113.33% increase for S35vn.

G10 8C413Mov Tenacious = $64.50
G10 M4 Tenacious = $142.50 - About 120.93% increase for M4.

I understand it's not trendy Magnacut but what is it about 8Cr13MoV that makes people so averse to it?

Preconceived notions? I've used a LOT of 8cr in my lifetime and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Spyderco and Kershaw (big users of it) run it hard (60hrc) and it performs very well for being a simple ingot based stainless steel. It's not a powdered super steel, but when compared to stuff like VG 10 or BD1N, you're not really losing much in the way of performance. Heck, the darling children of the budget knife world Nitro V and 14c28n aren't even that much better. None of these steels will hold an edge very long, but they're all fairly tough, easy to sharpen, stainless, and cheap to manufacture.

People view 8cr13mov the same way low carbon 420 was viewed back when stuff like 154cm and 440c were king, but unlike 420, 8cr has all the stuff it needs to make a proper, hard knife blade.

[RyanY]

8cr13mov is not an attractive name like nitro v though haha. In all seriousness it has performed very well for me on my tenacious.

[RyanY]

Ok just caught up. What a strange thing to do. The old Mantras were titanium handled flippers. Strange to reuse that product name on a non-flipper. Looks like an interesting design, always happy to see some non-Tenacious knives from China.

It is a flipper, but the flipper tab is very small. I would like to try one in person before buying.

[ZenL]

Those are definitely huge price jumps, but I am curious if a BD1N Tenacious would be closer to 8Cr at $56 or S35VN at $120. Maybe 8Cr is just that much ridiculously cheaper than anything else when made in China.

The C220 Polestar features almost exactly what you're looking for - something very much like a Tenacious in BD1 (not BD1N) for 90.75, which happens to be priced almost exactly between 8Cr and S35VN. I'm not sure if BD1/BD1N would be worth 50% more than 8Cr to most customers. Sure, some of the C220's cost could come from the scales and lower economies of scale, but I still think that importing steel into China for Spydercos would probably not be worth the price increases for many people. I also remember hearing Eric mention he was looking into other Chinese steels at the Amsterdam meet, but I don't think that they were able to find anything compelling or economical enough to justify switching or adopting anything else yet.

I've been thinking about why people are so upset about the new models featuring 8Cr. Some people say that it's an instant disqualifier for them and I'm wondering if it's just a mental block or an actual performance based criteria. I'm definitely leaning more to the former for the majority of 8Cr haters since I also often see S30V dismissed as "boring" in the same sorts of threads. I was also hypothesizing that people are upset to see 8Cr on models between $70-100, but it seems like many comments (at least on Reddit) were made without even knowing the prices at all.

Not that Spyderco would ever do this, but I genuinely think if the 8Cr blades were labeled with a completely new name (eg "Economax" or "Valua" or "Super 8" or "S5" - Spyderco Special Sino Stainless Steel) with no other changes, a lot of the 8Cr haters would instead be filled with excitement. In a way, I think it would also encourage some folks to use and enjoy a "basic" steel they otherwise would've scoffed at. Artisan's AR-RPM9 is a good example - according to Dr. Larrin, it's spray formed 9Cr (close to 440B) which has boosted toughness but very marginal improvements in other performance characteristics. I can't imagine a knife labeled as "440B SF" or "9Cr18MoV SF" would be nearly as popular as the more exotic sounding, but falsely advertising, AR-RPM9. I've only heard positive things about AR-RPM9, but then again it's featured in knives as cheap as $30 and most people don't know anything about it, so it could also be a case of it being "good for the price". Maybe Spyderco will eventually find a domestic Chinese steel producer to collaborate with for a new specially named proprietary steel at economical rates, I'd love to see it.

I confess, I used to be an obnoxious steel snob too, but after taking time to reflect on my conversation with Sal at Blade Show about "all good, just different" and focusing on the design and craftsmanship that makes Spyderco uniquely great, my enjoyment of all knives greatly increased. I hope some of those haters come around on giving the Mantra4 and ButtonUp a try, I think they might like them. I certainly enjoyed handling the prototypes and will be adding both to my collection.

[yowzer]

The C220 Polestar features almost exactly what you're looking for - something very much like a Tenacious in BD1 (not BD1N)

It uses BD1N these days. Got an upgrade a while back.

[WilliamMunny]

Those are definitely huge price jumps, but I am curious if a BD1N Tenacious would be closer to 8Cr at $56 or S35VN at $120. Maybe 8Cr is just that much ridiculously cheaper than anything else when made in China.

The C220 Polestar features almost exactly what you're looking for - something very much like a Tenacious in BD1 (not BD1N) for 90.75, which happens to be priced almost exactly between 8Cr and S35VN. I'm not sure if BD1/BD1N would be worth 50% more than 8Cr to most customers. Sure, some of the C220's cost could come from the scales and lower economies of scale, but I still think that importing steel into China for Spydercos would probably not be worth the price increases for many people. I also remember hearing Eric mention he was looking into other Chinese steels at the Amsterdam meet, but I don't think that they were able to find anything compelling or economical enough to justify switching or adopting anything else yet.

I've been thinking about why people are so upset about the new models featuring 8Cr. Some people say that it's an instant disqualifier for them and I'm wondering if it's just a mental block or an actual performance based criteria. I'm definitely leaning more to the former for the majority of 8Cr haters since I also often see S30V dismissed as "boring" in the same sorts of threads. I was also hypothesizing that people are upset to see 8Cr on models between $70-100, but it seems like many comments (at least on Reddit) were made without even knowing the prices at all.

Not that Spyderco would ever do this, but I genuinely think if the 8Cr blades were labeled with a completely new name (eg "Economax" or "Valua" or "Super 8" or "S5" - Spyderco Special Sino Stainless Steel) with no other changes, a lot of the 8Cr haters would instead be filled with excitement. In a way, I think it would also encourage some folks to use and enjoy a "basic" steel they otherwise would've scoffed at. Artisan's AR-RPM9 is a good example - according to Dr. Larrin, it's spray formed 9Cr (close to 440B) which has boosted toughness but very marginal improvements in other performance characteristics. I can't imagine a knife labeled as "440B SF" or "9Cr18MoV SF" would be nearly as popular as the more exotic sounding, but falsely advertising, AR-RPM9. I've only heard positive things about AR-RPM9, but then again it's featured in knives as cheap as $30 and most people don't know anything about it, so it could also be a case of it being "good for the price". Maybe Spyderco will eventually find a domestic Chinese steel producer to collaborate with for a new specially named proprietary steel at economical rates, I'd love to see it.

I confess, I used to be an obnoxious steel snob too, but after taking time to reflect on my conversation with Sal at Blade Show about "all good, just different" and focusing on the design and craftsmanship that makes Spyderco uniquely great, my enjoyment of all knives greatly increased. I hope some of those haters come around on giving the Mantra4 and ButtonUp a try, I think they might like them. I certainly enjoyed handling the prototypes and will be adding both to my collection.

That is why in large part I started this thread, the Mantra and ButtonUp both look like pretty awesome knives but, at least on social media, a lot of negative comments about using 8Cr.

I will admit when looking for a new Spyderco 8Cr doesn’t top my list, but at the price of these new knives it’s hard to complain.

As you said if these knives used any other steel than something from China would it make a big difference in perceived quality?

On the flip side, I think the Tenacious sells extremely well, 8Cr doesn’t seem to slow it down.

[RugerNurse]

People downplay VG10 too but it serve me well as a normal knife steel. I use my Delica for opening boxes, packages, zip ties, etc. I appreciate the super steels for what they offer but my daily uses don’t require it.

[RustyIron]

That is why in large part I started this thread, the Mantra and ButtonUp both look like pretty awesome knives but, at least on social media, a lot of negative comments about using 8Cr.

Folks on The Forum were complaining about high prices. Spyderco listened and delivered.

And now the Tick Tockers and Snapple Chatters are complaining about the choice of material? This all sounds like a case of the old man, the boy, and the donkey.

[vivi]

if you pay attention to forums where budget knives are discussed, there are two things that should stand out to you.

1. everyones knives look pristine, and when they discuss using them, the roughest use they tend to throw them at is breaking down their amazon boxes

2. they are completely obsessed with on paper specs / materials

it isn't about performance for a lot of these types. it's about what materials they are getting for which price.

x knife has bearings and titanium, but y knife is a superior ergonomic design? y knife will be discontinued by christmas and x knife will sell like hotcakes.

the mistake a lot of people make is assuming this crowd has the same mentality as the high performance knife users crowd.

these are the types of people that go to walmart and buy an ozark trail "chopper" for their first camping trip at 30+ years old and then brag on reddit about how it didn't literally break in half when they chopped an inch thick branch with it.

Half these people don't even know how to sharpen a knife, much less alter the edge angle and grit finish to optimize performance.

Is 8Cr an exciting steel in 2025?

No.

Is there anything wrong with it for a daily user?

No.

Folks in these circles are obsessed with 14C28N, Nitro V, etc. On paper there might be big differences, but having actually put these steels and 8Cr to genuine work, changing their edge angles, applying different grit finishes.....

....for me there's not much of a difference between the esteemed 14C28N steel and 8Cr performance in pocket knives aside from corrosion resistance being a little better in 14C.

To do well in this market takes a completely different approach than spyderco typical market from what I've seen.

[olywa]

If the knife design and QC are decent I don't mind 8CR. The Astute comes to mind. However, if I'm going to pick up a knife in 8CR I also would prefer a serrated edge. I've got a couple of Byrds in 8CR SE that I consider to be the Energizer Bunny of pocket knives. They just keep going and going and going..

[LazyOutdoorsman]

if you pay attention to forums where budget knives are discussed, there are two things that should stand out to you.

1. everyones knives look pristine, and when they discuss using them, the roughest use they tend to throw them at is breaking down their amazon boxes

2. they are completely obsessed with on paper specs / materials

it isn't about performance for a lot of these types. it's about what materials they are getting for which price.

x knife has bearings and titanium, but y knife is a superior ergonomic design? y knife will be discontinued by christmas and x knife will sell like hotcakes.

the mistake a lot of people make is assuming this crowd has the same mentality as the high performance knife users crowd.

these are the types of people that go to walmart and buy an ozark trail "chopper" for their first camping trip at 30+ years old and then brag on reddit about how it didn't literally break in half when they chopped an inch thick branch with it.

Half these people don't even know how to sharpen a knife, much less alter the edge angle and grit finish to optimize performance.

Is 8Cr an exciting steel in 2025?

No.

Is there anything wrong with it for a daily user?

No.

Folks in these circles are obsessed with 14C28N, Nitro V, etc. On paper there might be big differences, but having actually put these steels and 8Cr to genuine work, changing their edge angles, applying different grit finishes.....

....for me there's not much of a difference between the esteemed 14C28N steel and 8Cr performance in pocket knives aside from corrosion resistance being a little better in 14C.

To do well in this market takes a completely different approach than spyderco typical market from what I've seen.

I 100% agree. 8cr/9cr isn't a bad steel by itself. While i haven't had any of spyderco's 8cr/9cr steel yet, i have a knife in it that have performs pretty well. It is almost as good as my AEB-L mule in which it takes a super sticky edge with minimal work and holds onto it. Unfortunately, many manufactures do not optimize it for acceptable performance in terms of heat treatment.
Overall, I think people overlook the heat treatment and instead look at the steel to determine performance.

[N. Brian Huegel]

To the best of my knowledge, Takefu has an agreement (many years ago) with Japanese cutlery makers not to ship VG-10 to China. That does not stop China steel foundries and Chinese makers from using Chinese made counterfeit VG-10 (or just lying entirely about the steel). This practice has been going on for over a decade, maybe two. The same for M390, S30V, and even MagnaCut. They can be tested and will appear to be very similar in the alloy specs, but they are not the same.

nb

[phaust]

For me the performance is fine for what they are but rust resistance is not. Switching to 13c27 or 14c28n, which are found in even cheaper knives, would be a big positive.