Deployment Timing

[Evil D]

I'm not a knife fighting aficionado, but my last job did put me in some borderline emergency situations. My advice is an age old saying that I'm sure most of you have heard many times, "slow is smooth, smooth is fast". Don't worry about speed, worry about consistency in the heat of the moment, otherwise you'll probably fling your knife out of your hand and end up having it used against you.

There's another saying regarding knife fights "the loser dies in the street, the winner dies in the hospital".

[Michael Janich]

Dear civilian_g10:

Andy Keyworth is a very skilled instructor and long-time MBC practitioner who lives in Ontario. In addition to earning Associate Instructor status in MBC, he also teaches kenjitsu and other traditional combat arts and has direct lineage to his teachers in Japan. His contact information can be found on the MBC Instructor Locator. Just go to https://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/mb ... or-locator and scroll down to find Canada.

Stay safe,

Mike

[jdw]

There's another saying regarding knife fights "the loser dies in the street, the winner dies in the hospital".

Very much this ^^

[Naperville]

Dear civilian_g10:

I think you are spot on in challenging yourself to deploy your folders quickly and positively. That is one element of defensive knife training that many instructors gloss over--or they focus on training and demonstrating with non-concealed fixed-blade trainers to avoid the issue.

In MBC, we focus on "earning your draw," which means mitigating the threat with empty-hand or improvised-weapon skills to create adequate time and distance to deploy your knife. If you perceive the threat in advance and can't avoid it or exit the area, we also practice surreptitious methods and drawing in response to a threat that is still out of range. In my opinion, those aspects of "relative timing" are more important than the absolute timing of the draw itself.

With that said, how you open your knife also has a significant effect on your deployment speed. If you're really concerned about speed, the Emerson Wave is the fastest. For non-Waved knives, in my experience, inertial openings are fastest, followed by Spydie-Drop and thumb openings, in that order. The disadvantage of the Spydie-Drop is that you are gripping with less surface-area contact and must reposition the knife in your hand before use.

Here's a video I did for the USCCA a few years ago to complement the Defensive Edge feature I write for their Concealed Carry magazine. It explains more of my preferred approach:



Kudos to you for training diligently. Keep up the great work!

Stay safe,

Mike

I am not knocking anyone, but there is information out there for drawing from concealment.

The video purchase and download that I linked to earlier in the thread has training for concealed fixed-blade trainers/knives, and their drawing from a concealed position.

I just reviewed the video to be sure and yep, it is in there. FCS Tuhon Ray Dionaldo covers all the bases. FCS Tuhon Ray Dionaldo has studied and graduated under a dozen well known schools including Remy Presas and Sayoc Kali, Pekiti Tersia.... he is one of the best martial artists in the world.

About Ray Dionaldo
https://www.fcskaliphilippines.com/about-tuhon-ray.html

Instructors
https://www.fcskaliphilippines.com/inst ... sting.html

THE DRAW
https://www.fcskaliphilippines.com/-fcs ... ideos.html

[Naperville]

Just so that everyone knows I've been in and out of martial arts since I was 9 years old and dabbled in 12 martial arts, 5 of them Filipino knife arts. Recently I have not been involved in martial arts, last involvement around 2003. I am in North Central Illinois right now, 40 miles West of Chicago and the pickings are slim. Everything that I might try is a 1 hour drive or more in most instances and I am working full time.

I did spend a few hours working with one of Michael Janich's students here in Illinois many moons ago. Again it was a long drive from where I lived so I did not follow up.

Michael Janich has lived quite the life, done many interesting things and created an interesting art form. If you are close to one of Michael Janich's instructors, then by all means dive in and study. I like to study from a lot of different people. I also only like to study from the best and the only way to get that instruction is to try different schools or different instructors at different locations within the same art.

Discussing martial arts is tricky. There is a respect given to those that have done it, and there is a respect given to those creating the value and martial aspects of an art. My comments mean absolutely no disrespect to Michael Janich.

[Stas]

Wise words from David, as always. But honestly, I’m not even sure what “knife fight” really means. Like two people facing off with knives like in a duel? Does that even happen?

What seems real to me is when something unexpected happens — because if it was expected, you probably wouldn’t be there. Someone attacks you, and you use a knife to stop them, like Mike Janich teaches — not to kill or go toe-to-toe, but to survive and get away.

You “win” by getting out as fast as you can. In that kind of moment, a knife can be super useful — more than most tools you might have — if you can get it out quickly while under pressure and moving.

[vivi]

Wise words from David, as always. But honestly, I’m not even sure what “knife fight” really means. Like two people facing off with knives like in a duel? Does that even happen?

in my 25 years of browsing knife forums I've never understood why a certain % of people assume knife fight any time defensive edged weapon use is discussed.

as to the OP, I can get a clipped lockback open and ready in a little under 1.5 seconds. Not from trying....opening spydie folders is something I've done hundreds of thousands of times so it's just repetition.

I've never carried a folder for defensive purposes. guns and fixed blades are a superior choice for that.

[zhyla]

in my 25 years of browsing knife forums I've never understood why a certain % of people assume knife fight any time defensive edged weapon use is discussed.

Well, it’s what you see in movies.

[Stas]

in my 25 years of browsing knife forums I've never understood why a certain % of people assume knife fight any time defensive edged weapon use is discussed.

Well, it’s what you see in movies.

Indeed, seems like people imagine this and judge accordingly.

[Evil D]

in my 25 years of browsing knife forums I've never understood why a certain % of people assume knife fight any time defensive edged weapon use is discussed.

Well, it’s what you see in movies.

Indeed, seems like people imagine this and judge accordingly.

When I say "knife fight" I'm mostly imagining you pull a knife, you get in a struggle and get disarmed, and then the knife is used against you. But, I guess people would rather romanticize this scenario as them coming out of the conflict as the winner. It's debatable which scenario is more silly, a cliche Hollywood knife fight or someone thinking they're John Wick.

[Naperville]

in my 25 years of browsing knife forums I've never understood why a certain % of people assume knife fight any time defensive edged weapon use is discussed.

Well, it’s what you see in movies.

Indeed, seems like people imagine this and judge accordingly.

When I say "knife fight" I'm mostly imagining you pull a knife, you get in a struggle and get disarmed, and then the knife is used against you. But, I guess people would rather romanticize this scenario as them coming out of the conflict as the winner. It's debatable which scenario is more silly, a cliche Hollywood knife fight or someone thinking they're John Wick.

I've used knives twice and sharpened pencils once. They did the trick, I came out a winner in all cases and I was not disarmed. I left about one quarter of an inch of two pencils in the left shoulder of a Center on the HS Football Team nicknamed "The Whale" because at 300+ lbs he was the heaviest guy in the HS. He asked me for the answers to questions on an exam and I never cheat, so he attacked me and I defended myself.

At 65 I am not John Wick, but I think some of these script writers followed me around decades ago for ideas.

I never swung, slashed or thrust a knife at anyone. Never drew blood on anyone with a knife. Usually when you say KNIFE and show it to them, they back off.

[Michael Janich]

Dear Naperville:

So there's no misunderstanding, I was not referring to Ray Dionaldo with my comments about drawing and demonstrating with fixed-blade trainers. I agree that Ray is extremely talented and has always been incredibly friendly and gracious to me. In my experience, many traditional FMA systems do not emphasize practical folder deployment methods.

Stay safe,

Mike

[vivi]

When I say "knife fight" I'm mostly imagining you pull a knife, you get in a struggle and get disarmed, and then the knife is used against you. But, I guess people would rather romanticize this scenario as them coming out of the conflict as the winner. It's debatable which scenario is more silly, a cliche Hollywood knife fight or someone thinking they're John Wick.

There's a lot of other possible scenarios though, which was my point.

Last time I was in a knife situation with violent intentions, I was working as a security guard.

I had just removed someone from the property I was in charge of and he was upset.

He pulled a little 3" kershaw flipper on me.

I was carrying an LCP Max and Street Bowie at the time.

Which do you think I pulled in response?

The answer might surprise you.

Neither.

I lit him up with my flashlight on turbo (fenix pd36r) while retreating to create space, then dialed 911 on speakerphone.

Defused the situation, got him arrested, and came out unscathed. I call that a win.

One of the most unrealistic parts about movies is how quick the "good" guys resort to violence. It's rare to come out unscathed even in an unarmed 1 on 1 scuffle where you have the size and training advantage.

There's other situations I've been in over the years and none turned into a knife fight.

[James Y]

Here is an example on current news about a 69 year old truck driver who used a knife to defend himself while being severely beaten by 38 year old ex-NFL quarterback Mark Sanchez. It was NOT a "knife brawl," as that reporter mistakenly says. The truck driver's use of a knife most likely saved his life. It seems pretty clear that Sanchez had been the aggressor who initiated it.



Jim

[James Y]

in my 25 years of browsing knife forums I've never understood why a certain % of people assume knife fight any time defensive edged weapon use is discussed.

Well, it’s what you see in movies.

Indeed, seems like people imagine this and judge accordingly.

When I say "knife fight" I'm mostly imagining you pull a knife, you get in a struggle and get disarmed, and then the knife is used against you. But, I guess people would rather romanticize this scenario as them coming out of the conflict as the winner. It's debatable which scenario is more silly, a cliche Hollywood knife fight or someone thinking they're John Wick.

In most instances, the knife is never even seen. I am aware of several instances where knives were used as equalizers against attackers in self-defense situations, and in most of those cases, the attacker never even saw the knife. And none of the defenders in the cases that I'm aware of had been trained in knife combatives.

It would be very difficult to disarm a knife from a very *determined* person, who is reasonably healthy enough to function. If it were so easy to disarm a determined person who is armed with a knife, then police procedure would be to simply walk up to them like the movie version of Steven Seagal and take it from them, instead of reality, where they are standing at a distance, guns pointed, repeatedly yelling at them to "Drop the knife!"

Jim

[Evil D]

Hey guys forget I said anything. This is definitely an agree to disagree conversation, for a second I forgot why I always stay out of these kinds of discussions. I really hope none of you ever find yourselves in this sort of situation.

[TkoK83Spy]

Here is an example on current news about a 69 year old truck driver who used a knife to defend himself while being severely beaten by 38 year old ex-NFL quarterback Mark Sanchez. It was NOT a "knife brawl," as that reporter mistakenly says. The truck driver's use of a knife most likely saved his life. It seems pretty clear that Sanchez had been the aggressor who initiated it.



Jim

Using the knife, also almost ended his life too though. Sanchez overpowered him and used it to give him that gash on his face. It apparently went through his cheek and cut his tongue.

[Naperville]

Dear Naperville:

So there's no misunderstanding, I was not referring to Ray Dionaldo with my comments about drawing and demonstrating with fixed-blade trainers. I agree that Ray is extremely talented and has always been incredibly friendly and gracious to me. In my experience, many traditional FMA systems do not emphasize practical folder deployment methods.

Stay safe,

Mike

I was not sure how to take your statement, thank you.

You are both excellent, both are creators and deep thinkers about martial arts.

Bahala Na and the offshoot group Stockton Multistyle use folders as their EDC It's been a very long time since I worked out with them but that is what I recall.

I do not recall what the knife laws are in CA, but everyone that I trained with carried folders.

[Scandi Grind]

Hey guys forget I said anything. This is definitely an agree to disagree conversation, for a second I forgot why I always stay out of these kinds of discussions. I really hope none of you ever find yourselves in this sort of situation.

I don't think this has turned into a weird debate or anything, I think we just have different people sharing different opinions and perspectives which benefits everybody. Your thoughts are as welcome as anybody's.

For me personally I have health problems that can make running difficult, I am a very small person, and I can't currently carry a gun, so a knife is my backup force equalizer if I have no other recourse. My intention is never to fight, but I want what the military refers to as combat overmatch if forced to ward someone off. Right now a knife is one of the few significant force multipliers I can carry, so that is what I go with.

[James Y]

Here is an example on current news about a 69 year old truck driver who used a knife to defend himself while being severely beaten by 38 year old ex-NFL quarterback Mark Sanchez. It was NOT a "knife brawl," as that reporter mistakenly says. The truck driver's use of a knife most likely saved his life. It seems pretty clear that Sanchez had been the aggressor who initiated it.



Jim

Using the knife, also almost ended his life too though. Sanchez overpowered him and used it to give him that gash on his face. It apparently went through his cheek and cut his tongue.

I hadn't heard that part, but yes, that can and does happen. But I've seen a lot of cases. And disarming a knife from a *determined* person and using it against them is not quite as common as many people believe it is.

Some of the incidents I'm aware of include:

An MMA practitioner who took another guy down to the ground in a parking lot, and the other guy pulled out a "pocket knife" and stabbed him over a dozen times from underneath, while the MMA guy was maneuvering into position on top. He did not survive.

An AAU collegiate wrestling champion who had been successful in many street fights, Dusty Harless, pulled another guy out of a car, and as he and a friend were beating the guy, the latter pulled a folder out and stabbed backwards once, which proved fatal.

A lone woman's rural home was broken into, and the intruder tried to attack her. She pulled out a small knife and ended the attackers life. The knife she used, which was shown in the report, was a cheap Gerber liner lock, a model that used to be sold at Target stores many years ago.

There are many more. The first two cases happened locally, not too far from where I live. And in none of these cases were the defenders particularly athletic or trained in knife fighting (the woman in the 3rd incident was shown, and she was very overweight), and none were disarmed.

Anyway, I'll stop posting in this thread, as I've probably ruined the spirit of the discussion.

Jim