Deployment Timing

[cabfrank]

How can it be faster with no clip?

It's not, I said it's 2/10ths slower with no clip.

Got it, misread.

It does seem like there should be more difference though. Must be loose pockets.

[bearfacedkiller]

This isn't really the best forum for this discussion though. Most people here tend to be more about edcing, collecting, modding, sharpening. For me personally, I never really think of the knife I'm carrying as a weapon or thinking about using it as such. It's a tool too me.

I agree that the forum has shifted away from discussing knives as self defense tools but it wasn’t always that way. When I first started lurking around here about 15 years ago it was a common topic.

I also don’t look at my knives as self defense tools but in a jam it’s always an option and unlike my pistol I always have a knife with me. I’m not allowed to carry a gun at work for example. Many folks on here carry guns but some of us live in states or countries that don’t allow that freedom.

Spyderco has always had multiple knives in their catalog designed specifically for self defense and they have a long history of collaborating with other experts in that area. I believe that was Sal’s initial reason for becoming interested in blades in the first place. We have pocket clips and one handed opening because he wanted quicker access to a self defense tool.

In all reality, all modern folders can trace their roots back to the “tactical” folders of the 80’s.

[Scandi Grind]

If you are talking for reasons of self defense, I think Jim's comment is very relevant.

If we're talking about deployment speed for 'tactical' purposes, I would imagine the real key would be the ability to deploy it quickly, stealthily, and well-coordinated, from a variety of positions, while under pressure of an attack, or an impending attack. Which is very different from doing it while alone, relaxed, and not under any pressure and the effects of adrenaline.

Jim

Not to say that solo practice isn't useful as well, but if I wanted to figure out if it is fast enough, I would get a trainer and have somebody try to get a firm hand to my shoulder (or some other low impact contact) as fast as they can, then see if I am actually able to put up my knife defense before they touch me. I'd try different distances, and be realistic. In an actual situation where lawyers become involved, you may not want to draw a knife too soon. Have your partner try different approaches, and different levels of evident intensity, try to draw when you think you would actually need to in a real engagement.

Then maybe when you succeed, have your partner simulate sueing you for defending yourself, and explain to you all the ways that you might be perceived as too aggressive by an ignorant jury listening to a lawyer. If you want to be realistic...

[civilian_g10]

First and foremost, my apologies if the topic/ discussion is off topic here. I was leery at first, so I didn't add context.

I personally look at both a knife and a firearm as a tool, firstly - I come from a hunting background. I follow the philosophy of - I'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it - within reason of course.

I've been involved in two, three on one scenarios in my life time. In the first scenario, one side of me was disabled trying to prevent myself from being stabbed. From that moment I moved to carrying two folders - one on each side, in case the same situation ever arose.

The second situation involved me having to prevent them from reaching my vehicle - which had my infant daughter sitting inside. It was my first time adding fixed carry into the mix - a street bowie at 12 o-clock. The tip of the knife, roughly 1 inch, snapped off in that scenario; needless to say, I learned the lesson of two is one and one is none.

In all situations, I've never drawn until I've been over powered physically. At that point it becomes a matter of survival - whatever the law chooses to make of it, I've decided to accept the potential consequences.

[Scandi Grind]

As far as I'm concerned it is on-topic. I believe knives are tools, that is what I intend to use them for, but I'm also not afraid to call them weapons, because they can be when needed. I'm not afraid to call them weapons any more than I am afraid to call my own body a weapon. Sounds like your life has given you plenty of justification for the carry of weapons for the purpose of defense. I just wouldn't call them weapons in front of a jury.

Also my comments about lawsuits and lawyers were not meant as a deterrent to anybody who wants to carry any kind of tool for defense, but rather just a reality check about the bizarre world we live in today. I have self defense insurance in case of the potential aftermath of a voilent encounter. I agree that when the stakes are high, what is needed is the will to survive no matter what, come what may.

[TkoK83Spy]

Absolutely! I didn't mean sound like it's a taboo topic that's not allowed. I only meant, it's not a very common subject of conversation. That's all.

[civilian_g10]

Absolutely! I didn't mean sound like it's a taboo topic that's not allowed. I only meant, it's not a very common subject of conversation. That's all.

No worries. I'm obviously new here, so I didn't want to ruffle any feathers.

[Naperville]

Just one knife? All serious knife fighters draw two knives at once.

This is false.

There may be less than 10 well developed large escrima, arnis and kali styles globally and practitioners usually use one blade, one knife.

Advanced students in a few of the arts do train with two blades. Instructors get the most training by repeating the tasks over and over to new students.

If there were 100,000 students, maybe 200 would study using two blades a few hours per month. Whether or not they could use the two blades under duress is a whole nother ball of wax.

One sharp blade is hard to keep track of and in many knife altercations, people wielding ONE KNIFE often cut themselves.

[Mushroom]

[Naperville]

The running joke here is that I've been on here since early 2018 and have blocked just one user because I found him lacking in tact.

[Mushroom]

[zhyla]

First and foremost, my apologies if the topic/ discussion is off topic here. I was leery at first, so I didn't add context.

I don’t think it’s exactly on topic here and might fit better in the off topic section, but I think it’s fine to ask. This isn’t a large forum so oddball topics aren’t disruptive usually.

I don’t think there’s really an answer to your question. I think in general OC spray is going to be a more reliable defensive tool.

[TomH]

Been here about 16 years now. I too remember when there were lots of threads on using knives for defense...and maybe even for combat.

[Naperville]

First and foremost, my apologies if the topic/ discussion is off topic here. I was leery at first, so I didn't add context.

I don’t think it’s exactly on topic here and might fit better in the off topic section, but I think it’s fine to ask. This isn’t a large forum so oddball topics aren’t disruptive usually.

I don’t think there’s really an answer to your question. I think in general OC spray is going to be a more reliable defensive tool.

The use of mace, OC sprays and gels are legal in Illinois for self defense. I did not know it and just checked. I have some and will put it in the car.

I do not feel that mace, OC sprays and gels are equal to a knife though. I'd still carry a knife if you can. If you can carry a fixed blade carry that for self defense over a folder. The less fidgeting that you do with weapon deployment the better.

There is a progressive use of force for all matters. Check your town, city, county and state laws before deciding to carry anything.

[Michael Janich]

Dear civilian_g10:

I think you are spot on in challenging yourself to deploy your folders quickly and positively. That is one element of defensive knife training that many instructors gloss over--or they focus on training and demonstrating with non-concealed fixed-blade trainers to avoid the issue.

In MBC, we focus on "earning your draw," which means mitigating the threat with empty-hand or improvised-weapon skills to create adequate time and distance to deploy your knife. If you perceive the threat in advance and can't avoid it or exit the area, we also practice surreptitious methods and drawing in response to a threat that is still out of range. In my opinion, those aspects of "relative timing" are more important than the absolute timing of the draw itself.

With that said, how you open your knife also has a significant effect on your deployment speed. If you're really concerned about speed, the Emerson Wave is the fastest. For non-Waved knives, in my experience, inertial openings are fastest, followed by Spydie-Drop and thumb openings, in that order. The disadvantage of the Spydie-Drop is that you are gripping with less surface-area contact and must reposition the knife in your hand before use.

Here's a video I did for the USCCA a few years ago to complement the Defensive Edge feature I write for their Concealed Carry magazine. It explains more of my preferred approach:



Kudos to you for training diligently. Keep up the great work!

Stay safe,

Mike

[sal]

Hi Civilian_G10,

As mentioned, we don't shy away from knives used as weapons, but discussion is mostly for defense, not offence. Obviously, we have many models that were designed with defense in mind.

I agree with Mike , and would also suggest training. Depending on where you are, there are instructors for such training. Mike is also available for local training, or advice for elsewhere.

sal

[zhyla]

Here's a video I did for the USCCA a few years ago to complement the Defensive Edge feature I write for their Concealed Carry magazine. It explains more of my preferred approach:

Thanks for posting this. Is this is a reliable deployment method? It doesn't work if you don't have the room to move your arm, grabbed a small knife that day, or just aren't doing the motion right while under stress. I also could not get it to go with any of my backlocks. I understand the "earn your draw" idea but it seems like a mistake to practice a draw that won't also work while you're getting pushed around. Or maybe I misinterpreted and this is one of many draws you use depending on the situation?

[civilian_g10]

Dear civilian_g10:

I think you are spot on in challenging yourself to deploy your folders quickly and positively. That is one element of defensive knife training that many instructors gloss over--or they focus on training and demonstrating with non-concealed fixed-blade trainers to avoid the issue.

In MBC, we focus on "earning your draw," which means mitigating the threat with empty-hand or improvised-weapon skills to create adequate time and distance to deploy your knife. If you perceive the threat in advance and can't avoid it or exit the area, we also practice surreptitious methods and drawing in response to a threat that is still out of range. In my opinion, those aspects of "relative timing" are more important than the absolute timing of the draw itself.

With that said, how you open your knife also has a significant effect on your deployment speed. If you're really concerned about speed, the Emerson Wave is the fastest. For non-Waved knives, in my experience, inertial openings are fastest, followed by Spydie-Drop and thumb openings, in that order. The disadvantage of the Spydie-Drop is that you are gripping with less surface-area contact and must reposition the knife in your hand before use.

Here's a video I did for the USCCA a few years ago to complement the Defensive Edge feature I write for their Concealed Carry magazine. It explains more of my preferred approach:



Kudos to you for training diligently. Keep up the great work!

Stay safe,

Mike

Thank you for the message Mike.

I've learned a lot over the years by studying your videos. I appreciate that you explain why you make the maneuvers that you do. The concept of disabling limbs of an attacker - e.g. the brachial plexus, followed by the quad - helped advance my self defense knowledge tremendously. I like how your maneuvers flow from one to the next as well.

I've given my partner an Emerson Wave model Matriarch, as I feel it eliminates the fine motor skills required that may be hampered in a high stress situation. I agree with your statement regarding the downsides of the 'Spydie-Drop'.

My morning and nightly routine consists of drilling deployment, both stationary and while moving, for ~5 minutes; as well as an equipment check.

If you're ever in Ontario, Canada for a seminar/ event, I'd love to attend.

[civilian_g10]

Hi Civilian_G10,

As mentioned, we don't shy away from knives used as weapons, but discussion is mostly for defense, not offence. Obviously, we have many models that were designed with defense in mind.

I agree with Mike , and would also suggest training. Depending on where you are, there are instructors for such training. Mike is also available for local training, or advice for elsewhere.

sal

Hi Sal,

Do you or Mike know of any instructors in Ontario, Canada?

[sal]

Hi Civilian,

I don't, but I'm guessing Mike does.

sal