Byrd Self Protection Blade Question

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Can some of you answer this?
I read two conflicting statements regarding serrated vs plain edges for self protection.
Those who say Plain Edge say the straight smooth non serrated edge cuts faster and does not get caught on clothing and fibrous materials, allowing the user to cut and get away from the attacker.
Those who say serrated edge say the serrated edge inflicts more damage on the attacker, cuts through materials better, and has more of a scary psychological effect on attackers and potential attackers. Especially in Hawkbill and Wharncliffe blades.

Which side is right?

[JohnNYPD]

No side is right.

Get a firearm carry permit if you really want to protect
yourself or loved ones. My knife would only come into the equation if my firearm malfunctions or my firearm is no longer in my possession.

[sal]

Mind set and training most important, whether shooting or cutting.

sal

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Thank you both, John and sal.
You are correct. This is helpful advice.
Sal, I must say, for budget knives the Byrds are
Very good quality. Thank you!

[JohnNYPD]

Agree Sal

Guess I’m old school.
My training & life experience taught me never bring a knife to a gun fight.
But I do agree if your life is being threatened and you don’t have a firearm use whatever you can to stop the threat.

Training , Training, Training.

[chronovore]

Firearms are ideal by a mile for self defense. You won't find much argument on that. Folders are terrible for self defense. You will find argument on that. It's mostly wrong. How do I know? First, logic. Calculate both the number of steps and potential failure points between you recognizing a threat and being able to effectively and reliably deal with it across the spectrum of possible encounter types for any given tool. It's actually the same logic that is applied to issues like holster type or "should I carry with one in the chamber" for firearms. Defensive encounters can be very fast even when they don't take you by surprise.

Second, I've practiced with training tools under active resistance. A folder works sometimes but that "sometimes" is just fragile enough that I'd rather a person spend more time at the gym than sink their trust into a folder. If your defensive tool needs to be a blade, a fixed blade in a sheath that gives you full grip on the draw is best by far. If anyone doesn't believe me, check me by getting the practice and training yourself. You'll do yourself a favor either way.

As with some of the previous posters, the serrations question is like a grain of sand versus the beach of the above. I'd only add that it's a bit like the shot-placement argument with guns. Whether "game over" hits to the central nervous system, the heart, or a vital vessel; or structural hits that mostly translate to severed tendons for knives; how often will plain versus serrated be the deciding factor in you surviving a legitimately deadly encounter?

[PM2Josh]

Firearms are ideal by a mile for self defense. You won't find much argument on that. Folders are terrible for self defense. You will find argument on that. It's mostly wrong. How do I know? First, logic. Calculate both the number of steps and potential failure points between you recognizing a threat and being able to effectively and reliably deal with it across the spectrum of possible encounter types for any given tool. It's actually the same logic that is applied to issues like holster type or "should I carry with one in the chamber" for firearms. Defensive encounters can be very fast even when they don't take you by surprise.

Second, I've practiced with training tools under active resistance. A folder works sometimes but that "sometimes" is just fragile enough that I'd rather a person spend more time at the gym than sink their trust into a folder. If your defensive tool needs to be a blade, a fixed blade in a sheath that gives you full grip on the draw is best by far. If anyone doesn't believe me, check me by getting the practice and training yourself. You'll do yourself a favor either way.

As with some of the previous posters, the serrations question is like a grain of sand versus the beach of the above. I'd only add that it's a bit like the shot-placement argument with guns. Whether "game over" hits to the central nervous system, the heart, or a vital vessel; or structural hits that mostly translate to severed tendons for knives; how often will plain versus serrated be the deciding factor in you surviving a legitimately deadly encounter?

Interesting thoughts I must say. And I can see merit behind them.
However, I think folding knives in general are a bit underrated for self defense in some scenarios. But I am not a highly trained bad a~~ with tons of Martial Arts knowledge.
Lost an associate in 2006 who was a second degree dan in old school non sport TKD. He was stabbed on an elevator and taken out by a scrawny 90 lb crack addict and a $10 M-Tech.
Bled out in under 30 seconds.Lucky strike artery hit in the rear butt cheek.

[PM2Josh]

My opinion. If you want a self protection byrd. Buy the byrd Cara Cara 2 wave. Combo edge or plain edge. Both will stick in something. And opening is faster than a switchblade.
I value fast opening over serrated vs non serrated.
I owned one a few years ago and It was pretty nice. I may get another one now that I think about it.
(Edited Misspelled Words)

[Michael Janich]

With regard to the initial question, serrated edges cut fibrous material extremely well--if that material is held firmly. When it is loose--like clothing on an attacker--the serrations can "snag" the cloth, cause it to move, and dissipate the force of the cut on the underlying tissue. I discovered this through live-blade cutting tests on several hundred "Pork Man" targets. In my testing, I found that PlainEdge blades--when properly sharpened and with good edge geometry--cut deeper and more cleanly.

With that said, all serrations are not created equally. Older Spyderco serrations also had more acute, angular points that accentuated snagging during ballistic cuts. As Sal has referenced elsewhere on the forum, serrations actually perform better after they've been sharpened a few times.

With regard to the "taking a gun to a knife fight," Sean Connery and "The Untouchables" were both awesome, but neither is the basis for sound self-defense advice--especially for those who live in areas where the concealed carry of a firearm is not permitted. My focus on knife tactics peaked when I lived and worked overseas. Although I was assigned to a US Consulate and a US Embassy and had a diplomatic passport, by law I could not own or carry a firearm in those countries or the other countries to which I traveled. Rather than arming myself with an empty cliche, I trained diligently to use a weapon that was available and could be readily carried.

I have had several MBC students who have successfully used folding knives in self-defense. As Sal wisely points out, it's a matter of training. If you're not serious about training, it doesn't matter what weapon you carry, as it is more of a talisman than a usable defensive tool. With that in mind, the Cara Cara 2 or Meadowlark 2 would be the logical choices in the byrd line, as they come closest to the Endura 4 and Delica 4 trainers you'd need for true skill development.

Stay safe,

Mike

[PM2Josh]

Cara Cara 2 semi serrated wave opener.
My last resort self defense choice.

Byrd Hawkbill.
My work knife.

[chronovore]

Firearms are ideal by a mile for self defense. You won't find much argument on that. Folders are terrible for self defense. You will find argument on that. It's mostly wrong. How do I know? First, logic. Calculate both the number of steps and potential failure points between you recognizing a threat and being able to effectively and reliably deal with it across the spectrum of possible encounter types for any given tool. It's actually the same logic that is applied to issues like holster type or "should I carry with one in the chamber" for firearms. Defensive encounters can be very fast even when they don't take you by surprise.

Second, I've practiced with training tools under active resistance. A folder works sometimes but that "sometimes" is just fragile enough that I'd rather a person spend more time at the gym than sink their trust into a folder. If your defensive tool needs to be a blade, a fixed blade in a sheath that gives you full grip on the draw is best by far. If anyone doesn't believe me, check me by getting the practice and training yourself. You'll do yourself a favor either way.

As with some of the previous posters, the serrations question is like a grain of sand versus the beach of the above. I'd only add that it's a bit like the shot-placement argument with guns. Whether "game over" hits to the central nervous system, the heart, or a vital vessel; or structural hits that mostly translate to severed tendons for knives; how often will plain versus serrated be the deciding factor in you surviving a legitimately deadly encounter?

Interesting thoughts I must say. And I can see merit behind them.
However, I think folding knives in general are a bit underrated for self defense in some scenarios. But I am not a highly trained bad a~~ with tons of Martial Arts knowledge.
Lost an associate in 2006 who was a second degree dan in old school non sport TKD. He was stabbed on an elevator and taken out by a scrawny 90 lb crack addict and a $10 M-Tech.
Bled out in under 30 seconds.Lucky strike artery hit in the rear butt cheek.

Folders can do a lot of damage when used as an offensive weapon. It's a very different use case. Sorry to hear about your associate and the unusual cause of death.

[elena86]

There is also the deterrent factor ''carried'' by the serrated claws. I was once in my life caught in a possible escalating dangerous situation. All I had to do is to pull out my Civilian and place it on the table in front of me, blade opened. I knew the surroundings are not safe, to say at least, hence the presence of the Civy on my back pocket. You wouldn't believe how fast things cooled down. As a side note, I live in a country where civilians are not allowed to carry lethal fire arms. I am not questioning Mike Janich expertise when it comes to MBC but I am quite sure that the Civilian blade could cause horrific damage on a body with or without clothes, no matter how those clothes are wrapped around that body. You could allways find an exposed target, a limb, the face or even the neck if you had to fight for your life or to protect your loved ones. This episode was 20 years ago(I was young and stupid) and now I must admit I acted provocative instead of de-escalating things in a different way. It did the trick but ... don't try this at home so to speak.

[Michael Janich]

Dear elena86:

The Civilian is a unique design. The Reverse "S" profile does indeed cut extremely well with a serrated edge. The compromise is that you give up a point that works with conventional thrusting tactics. Its pronounced hook also snags on bone. I prefer the Matriarch's less radical tip design for both durability and versatility.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Naperville]

I've dabbled in 12 martial arts, 5 of them Filipino bladed arts.

I've used folding knives to get me out of jams at least twice. But I do agree a fixed blade would have been a bit better, safer, and more secure in my hand.

The last time that I used a folder to get me out of a jam, I was on the South Side of Chicago and 4 to 5 guys were kicking me and trying to grab me and all that I did was open an assisted folding knife while drawing it to my hip where it stayed. Then, I said "KNIFE!" and they all backed off letting me leave the area.

Folders, fixed blades, utility knives, ice picks, they all work well.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I've dabbled in 12 martial arts, 5 of them Filipino bladed arts.

I've used folding knives to get me out of jams at least twice. But I do agree a fixed blade would have been a bit better, safer, and more secure in my hand.

The last time that I used a folder to get me out of a jam, I was on the South Side of Chicago and 4 to 5 guys were kicking me and trying to grab me and all that I did was open an assisted folding knife while drawing it to my hip where it stayed. Then, I said "KNIFE!" and they all backed off letting me leave the area.

Folders, fixed blades, utility knives, ice picks, they all work well.

Would you say the Byrd Hawkbills and the Gooney would be more effective or more straight bladed Byrds or all the same?

[Naperville]

I've dabbled in 12 martial arts, 5 of them Filipino bladed arts.

I've used folding knives to get me out of jams at least twice. But I do agree a fixed blade would have been a bit better, safer, and more secure in my hand.

The last time that I used a folder to get me out of a jam, I was on the South Side of Chicago and 4 to 5 guys were kicking me and trying to grab me and all that I did was open an assisted folding knife while drawing it to my hip where it stayed. Then, I said "KNIFE!" and they all backed off letting me leave the area.

Folders, fixed blades, utility knives, ice picks, they all work well.

Would you say the Byrd Hawkbills and the Gooney would be more effective or more straight bladed Byrds or all the same?

I can tell you what I prefer using the training that I have been given. I have no proof that the choices that I make are the best for everyone though.