Back lock is

[Mushroom]

@TkoK83Spy


Understanding risks does not eliminate them.

The insinuation that someone is above those risks but everyone else isn't, is the complication here. Following that with an unnecessarily long attempt to justify it only makes the contradiction harder to ignore.

There’s nothing wrong with sharing our personal experiences. It's just that the way it is being presented here comes across as dismissive or condescending, which is why it’s getting the pushback that it does.

[Evil D]

I am still so surprised by the criticism of the Native 5/Chief lock up. I must have gotten really lucky because these are in my experience the best locking back locks I've owned. I think I've bought 4 of the Natives and I have 2 Chiefs and they're all so solid. I think the only other backlocks I own that rival these are some older vintage '90s models and the all stainless pinned construction Police.

The lock-up itself is great, probably the least amount of vertical play on any of my spyderco lockbacks. The opening and closing action isn't nearly as nice feeling as a Police to me though. Part of that is the opening hole being less exposed though.

Oh I definitely agree with that. I wish they'd reengineer all their back locks to open the way the Rock Jumper does, or at least reshape the tangs so that profile. They'll always be harder to open because of the lack of thumb ramp but I think the tang could be tweaked to be easier to open while still having a good close bias.

[Red Leader]

FWIW I myself cannot reasonably nor reliably Spydie flick a Native 5, although it is fun to try, in my own setting away from others. Other knives like the Manix 2 or even other backlocks like the Leafjumper are super easy. I suppose each situation is different. I watched one of the guys at the SFO spydie flick a Nand which was insane and I would never attempt. I feel like I could cut myself on that thing opening or closing normally as is!

I still long for the day that a Native 5 calls my name. But for now the LJ and Stretch 2 keep me company

[Wartstein]

...
Understanding risks does not eliminate them.

The insinuation that someone is above those risks but everyone else isn't, is the complication here. Following that with an unnecessarily long attempt to justify it only makes the contradiction harder to ignore.

There’s nothing wrong with sharing our personal experiences. It's just that the way it is being presented here comes across as dismissive or condescending, which is why it’s getting the pushback that it does.

Well, no use to say any more here then:

Luckily the general attitude here still is that folks judge matters in depth not from the armchair, but only if they have true, own experience with those - I will keep sticking to this too, but I also think this forum can easily bare the still very rare exceptions from this basic rule of grown up discussion

It is actually truly an important point in my view:
If we no longer could respectfully share our own, true experience plus offering solid, potential explanations for why things might work or work better than alternatives, while saying that this of course does not have to but might work for others too, we´d probably still be at a point where opening knives one handed at all would be seen as crazy dangerous and "Ricks safety committee" would forbid it or even "carrying dangerous knives" in the first place.

Or we would carry only fixed blade, cause the opening process of folders poses too much risk, we´d still think serrations are "so hard to sharpen" and supersteels anyway...

So, folks, especially newer members here:
Don´t let the rare narrow minded comments here hinder you from sharing your own experiences, as long as they are honest and solid and you do it in a constructive manner!
It is much of what this forum is about, and the vast majority will appreciate your inputs, listen to and consider instead of ignoring true experience and good reasoning, even if they might not agree!

[Wartstein]

....
Oh I definitely agree with that. I wish they'd reengineer all their back locks to open the way the Rock Jumper does, or at least reshape the tangs so that profile. They'll always be harder to open because of the lack of thumb ramp but I think the tang could be tweaked to be easier to open while still having a good close bias.

Interesting, could you please elaborate?

I always thought the reason why the Native family members are a bit less convenient to open solely is the position of the opening hole in relation to the finger and pivot...

[holokai]

....
Oh I definitely agree with that. I wish they'd reengineer all their back locks to open the way the Rock Jumper does, or at least reshape the tangs so that profile. They'll always be harder to open because of the lack of thumb ramp but I think the tang could be tweaked to be easier to open while still having a good close bias.

Interesting, could you please elaborate?

I always thought the reason why the Native family members are a bit less convenient to open solely is the position of the opening hole in relation to the finger and pivot...

A larger radius between the pivot and tang/lock bar face will create more tension as the lock bar will be displaced/flexed more. Changing the profile of the tang to have a smaller radius mid-travel will reduce the spring displacement/tension/force.

You’re right that the position of the hole in relation to the pivot plays a factor as well as the direction your finger needs to apply pressure to overcome the detent/closing bias as the x-force vector may be fighting the geometry where the y-force vector opens the knife.

Additionally, the ratio of the distance between the lock bar pivot and the tang vs the distance between the lock bar pivot and spring will also change the effective lock force/pressure on the tang.

I’m sure someone else can explain far better but it seems to be a balance of geometry and spring tension as far as the mechanics of opening are concerned.

For the end user their hand size, grip, and direction of opening force will change the perceived opening force/ease.

Apologies in advance for my rambling.

[Evil D]

....
Oh I definitely agree with that. I wish they'd reengineer all their back locks to open the way the Rock Jumper does, or at least reshape the tangs so that profile. They'll always be harder to open because of the lack of thumb ramp but I think the tang could be tweaked to be easier to open while still having a good close bias.

Interesting, could you please elaborate?

I always thought the reason why the Native family members are a bit less convenient to open solely is the position of the opening hole in relation to the finger and pivot...

Do you know anything about cars? I'll explain anyway for those that may not, but the concept here is similar to a camshaft lobe.



The egg shaped thing is the cam lobe, and in cars it operates the opening and closing of intake and exhaust valves. On knives this would be the blade tang, and instead of operating a valve it's operating the lock bar. The purpose of the action is completely different but the effect of that egg shape is the same. A taller/pointer egg increases how far a valve opens, even the roundness of the tip of the egg effects the rate that the valve opens and how long it stays open. On a knife the shape of the tang where it rides on the lock bar has the same effect, but it's seen in how much force it takes to open the blade, and then I how strong the close bias is.

It's possible to take a Dremel and reshape the tang and change this, but it's also very risky and you can only reduce what the factory gave you, which may not always be the best idea. I've tried this on some knives with varying success.

I do think this is something Spyderco do their homework on, I don't think they're just randomly assigning a blade tang shape. I think they want a desired amount of close bias for a given blade size and weight and that's how they choose the shape. I also suspect that the shape of the tang and the resulting action may also be limited by the size of the knife pivot and handle that it's inside of. There are a lot of variables that go into this, which is why I've said before that back locks may seem like the basic vanilla ice cream version of knife locks but they are far more complex than they seem.

[Wartstein]

Interesting, could you please elaborate?
...

Do you know anything about cars? I'll explain anyway for those that may not, but the concept here is similar to a camshaft lobe.



The egg shaped thing is the cam lobe, and in cars it operates the opening and closing of intake and exhaust valves. On knives this would be the blade tang, and instead of operating a valve it's operating the lock bar. The purpose of the action is completely different but the effect of that egg shape is the same. A taller/pointer egg increases how far a valve opens, even the roundness of the tip of the egg effects the rate that the valve opens and how long it stays open. On a knife the shape of the tang where it rides on the lock bar has the same effect, but it's seen in how much force it takes to open the blade, and then I how strong the close bias is.

It's possible to take a Dremel and reshape the tang and change this, but it's also very risky and you can only reduce what the factory gave you, which may not always be the best idea. I've tried this on some knives with varying success.

I do think this is something Spyderco do their homework on, I don't think they're just randomly assigning a blade tang shape. I think they want a desired amount of close bias for a given blade size and weight and that's how they choose the shape. I also suspect that the shape of the tang and the resulting action may also be limited by the size of the knife pivot and handle that it's inside of. There are a lot of variables that go into this, which is why I've said before that back locks may seem like the basic vanilla ice cream version of knife locks but they are far more complex than they seem.

l have to admit: I am not too much of a car guy, so I can´t really weigh in on that.
But your explanation is perfect, I fully understand now what you mean, thanks (also to @holokai )!

[bobnikon]

It's possible to take a Dremel and reshape the tang and change this, but it's also very risky and you can only reduce what the factory gave you, which may not always be the best idea. I've tried this on some knives with varying success.

I do think this is something Spyderco do their homework on, I don't think they're just randomly assigning a blade tang shape. I think they want a desired amount of close bias for a given blade size and weight and that's how they choose the shape. I also suspect that the shape of the tang and the resulting action may also be limited by the size of the knife pivot and handle that it's inside of. There are a lot of variables that go into this, which is why I've said before that back locks may seem like the basic vanilla ice cream version of knife locks but they are far more complex than they seem.

Yep,

As dad always said "it is easier to cut material off than to cut it back on"

Edit: and yes there are additive processes that could be employed...

[Wartstein]

I know you're all about flicking, seems to be a highlight of the hobby for you so far...good for you! I'm only stating the obvious regarding flicking somehow being the safest method, even "for me personally" .That's the prime example of being complacent. Sometimes that can cost you a limb, or your life. I've seen a few bad things over the years, if you care to joke about the safety committee. Working in an industrial environment, nearly everyone I work with is at risk on a daily basis. I know a select few around here can attest to that, working for the same company or delivering to us.

Your posts always show up late (not your fault of course!)

Rick, at this point I am actually a bit disappointed (concerning only this matter!), and I say this right because I usually very much respect your approach towards "discussing knives".

You´ve always been the guy who pointed out that people perhaps should actually use, sharpen, get to know their knives extensively in order to form a solid and valid and REAL WORLD opinion and not a priori believe what they "are told"
You sometimes shared your "astonishment" how "weirdly unused" Spydies people claim to have a lot of experience with actually still look and so on.

I generally very much appreciate and share this approach of yours, even more so since you definitely do what you preach, have a ton of real world knowledge to share, but in the rare occasions when you did not know things from own experience, you always honestly and openly said so.

But now and surprisingly you suddenly insist on actually knowing better how well a technique works and how safe it is for a person who learned to do it right - a technique that actually DOES work without any problems for quite some folks - despite you yourself are stating that you don´t like to flick your knives (which is completely fine!) and have no extended experience in the matter...

I don´t mean to be rude at all:

- But isn´t THAT a "prime example of being complacent" - ?

- How do you come to your conclusions??

I am undoubtedly not on your level when it comes to "steel knowledge / experience" or sharpening skills - but I figure I actually am concerning using and operating knives.
In that field we can speak eye to eye and I tell you from one honest and "reputable" knife guy to another that in this particular case I have practical experience that you apparently don´t have and also tell you with all due respect and honesty that you seemingly completely overestimate how "dangerous" flicking a knife really is, if one is used to it.
Sure, there is a learning curve... but this is true for generally opening knives one handed in the first place and even more so for closing them one handed (the latter theoretically probably more "risky" than flicking imo). Both will look and actually be a bit "dangerous" for people completely new to it and till they get the hang of it, but no one would draw the conclusion that everyone thus should only close folders with two hands...

So, all I am respectfully asking: Just continue to "be the guy you actually are" - don´t draw conclusions from what you assume or theorize or see or is "common knowledge" of folks who never really tried.
IF you want to discuss how practical and safe "flicking" actually can be, get real world practice and experience with it yourself beforehand.
I fully understand if you DON`T though, cause, as said, since "slow rolling" exists there is no real reason to flick knives.
It is, after some practice, nothing more than an "as good but slightly different" alternative that some might prefer for whatever reason. But there is no actual need for this method.
Have a good one, Rick!

[Mushroom]

Well, no use to say any more here then:

Luckily the general attitude here still is that folks judge matters in depth not from the armchair, but only if they have true, own experience with those - I will keep sticking to this too, but I also think this forum can easily bare the still very rare exceptions from this basic rule of grown up discussion

It is actually truly an important point in my view:
If we no longer could respectfully share our own, true experience plus offering solid, potential explanations for why things might work or work better than alternatives, while saying that this of course does not have to but might work for others too, we´d probably still be at a point where opening knives one handed at all would be seen as crazy dangerous and "Ricks safety committee" would forbid it or even "carrying dangerous knives" in the first place.

Or we would carry only fixed blade, cause the opening process of folders poses too much risk, we´d still think serrations are "so hard to sharpen" and supersteels anyway...

So, folks, especially newer members here:
Don´t let the rare narrow minded comments here hinder you from sharing your own experiences, as long as they are honest and solid and you do it in a constructive manner!
It is much of what this forum is about, and the vast majority will appreciate your inputs, listen to and consider instead of ignoring true experience and good reasoning, even if they might not agree!

If you're going to respond, at least respond to what was actually said.

Saying "No use to say any more here then" followed by a response like that is clearly your passive aggressive way of signaling that you have no interest in productive dialogue. Which is ironic given how much you claim to value respectful discussions.

Your straw man attempt at reframing what was said as some sort of attack on sharing personal experiences couldn't be further from the truth. Personally, I was very clear about the disrespectful and condescending tone in your posts being part of the reason for the pushback. (But you conveniently sidestepped that part. )

Appealing to the "general attitude" of the forum is nothing but virtue signaling. Just a way to shield yourself from simple disagreements by pretending that they always comes from a place of "narrow-mindedness."

Comparing simple criticism to some hypothetical resistance against innovation is absurdly unrelated to what is being discussed. You're misrepresenting what was said and subtly shifting the discussion away from the actual point. It's a rhetorical sleight of hand meant to rally support from the white knights. Wouldn't be the first time, I'm sure they'll be along shortly to pat you on your back here too.

For what it's worth, I appreciate you illustrating my point so perfectly

[cabfrank]

Nevermind, I'll skip it.

[Mushroom]

In a good mood again today.

Don't worry, I saw.



Right on cue.

[cabfrank]

[Red Leader]

Agree to disagree, and all that. Lots of interesting thoughts on both sides, and I cannot figure out where I would even be on the debate anymore haha. I think that Mushroom, TkoK83Spy and Wartstein you guys all have made some valid points. As Nick pointed out, probably just the delivery more than the thought. Safety matters, and of course nobody would or should argue w/ that. I cut myself closing my Manix on my pinky the other day, and before that, I cut the palm of my hand closing it because the tip swung into the meat of my palm, neither of which would have happened if I owned no knives at all to cut me. Has anyone dropped a knife ever? Or cut themselves accidentally? Where is the threshold of 'too much'...'no more...!' (a rhetorical question lol)

At some point the justification just doesn't make sense anymore, and where that point is will be different for everyone. For a large company w/ far higher liability, maybe they don't even want the headache of people having knives and the potential to cut themselves or someone else accidentally on the job. Who knows. Situations are different, people's individual risk tolerance and risk management are different.

All this time spent on debating the flicking of knives...man I cut myself FAR more often trying to close the things. Can y'all work on some safety discussion for that issue? Lol I need help...

Back to the back lock!

It isn't the greatest lock of course, but I look forward to getting my hands on a bronze-bushing Native of some sort (ala NOT lightweight) and seeing how it can be improved.

[Red Leader]

@TkoK83Spy

You want to bring to the attention of your safety committee in NY how a random stranger on an internet knife enthusiast forum opens his knife in a way you disapprove of?

I guess let us know what the safety committee says!

I know you're all about flicking, seems to be a highlight of the hobby for you so far...good for you! I'm only stating the obvious regarding flicking somehow being the safest method, even "for me personally" .That's the prime example of being complacent. Sometimes that can cost you a limb, or your life. I've seen a few bad things over the years, if you care to joke about the safety committee. Working in an industrial environment, nearly everyone I work with is at risk on a daily basis. I know a select few around here can attest to that, working for the same company or delivering to us.

Thanks for your response, sorry I totally missed it somehow! And I agree w/ you, I don't think by and large that the reverse flick (I think that is what we are all talking about) is consistently the safest method, at least for my own experience and knowledge set. And maybe that is consistent w/ most everyone else. I mean, who knows maybe Wartstein or others have a hand issue or injury that makes a thumb opening extremely painful and they lose traction on the knife doing something that works the best for everyone else. There's just no way for me to know, so when I hear people talk about their experiences, I don't think I've really earned the ability to correct them in absolute terms. That's what got to me on some of these responses, but I do apologize for being a bit crass.

What industry are you in? I'm in HVAC, so I do hear you on the safety front. Plenty of roof ladders, ice, and high voltage to think about.

[Scandi Grind]

I think opening a knife any way that works for you is fine. Not everybody is the same. I typically open two handed or slow role because that works for my hands. Lots of people flick and maybe that works great for them, I couldn't tell cause I'm not them. Trying to tell somebody otherwise just seems silly to me.

[Naperville]

Not my absolute favorite lock, but definitely better than liner/frame lock.

YES, I agree.

[RugerNurse]

I love backlocks, probably my favorite lock.