Back lock is

[twinboysdad]

Am I the only one who never experienced lock rock?

not sure how. I've never handled a spyderco lockback without some degree of vertical play. whether 25 year old jspanese models, byrds, golden sprints from the past 5 years, etc.

Same, lock rock is fake news

[vivi]

Am I the only one who never experienced lock rock?

not sure how. I've never handled a spyderco lockback without some degree of vertical play. whether 25 year old jspanese models, byrds, golden sprints from the past 5 years, etc.

I now know, based on reading numerous lock-rock threads, that I've definitely experienced it. I've checked and, sure enough, I was able to see and feel it by inducing it and carefully observing the play. But I can honestly say I've never noticed it in use, before or after reading those threads. To me it's a non-issue.

Trying to be objective, I believe the mid back lock is best because it combines strength, reliability, closing bias, feel in hand and appearance in a nicely simple package. It's not my favorite, though. That would be the liner lock, just because I've used it by far the most.

it's a non issue to me too, but for some reason I find it really strange how many folks claim they own spydercos without lock rock. If its a spyderco lock back and not a chap, I'm 99.999999999999999% sure people just aren't checking well enough.

[jwbnyc]

Comp locks, and liner locks are great.

But.

They require a little more care in use because of that detent-based closure.

CBBL’s are their own thing and if they’re stiff, they are pretty good. If they’re not: you have to be aware of that.

Backlocks can open in pocket too.

But, they are much less likely to, and even if they pop up a bit, they tend to shut themselves because of that closing bias.

There is a little more piece of mind with a backlock, I find, overall.

[wrdwrght]

I’ll take interesting over best every day of the week, but, yes, I like backlocks.

[Bill1170]

Lock rock can be detected on my Seki back lock knives, but I have to go looking for it. In actual use it’s never been a problem or even something that gets my attention. The only “problem” I’ve ever encountered with a Spyderco back lock knife was a Delica I carried deep in pocket (clip removed) once failed to lock because of pocket lint in the lock notch. Easy fix and now I check for lint.

[Red Leader]

I don't mind the great closing bias, I also don't think the slightly perceptible lock rock is a deal breaker or anything.

I just don't like how stiff they are. They, to my limited knowledge, cannot be tuned to feel awesome like a liner/frame/compression lock. If I am wrong, please show me, please show me a Native 5 that can feel as amazing opening and closing as a really well tuned detent system. I cannot spydie flick most easily, closing is weird and awkward, especially the one handed method. For context, we have an Endura, LJ, Stretch 2, Chaparral and Native 5 in the house. I love them, but would love them even more if opening/closing them was a better experience. The LJ is pretty good. The Native 5 is gritty and stiff, and the Endura stiff. I've had the Endura and used it for 15 years, and it has quite a large amount of lock rock, so I'm dubious about the longevity of the lock over time.

All that being said...'all our grandpas had were slipjoints'... and thus our (my) complaint is much ado about nothing!

I wouldn't even mind the lock rock, if we had easy to find replacement parts like the backlock, but I'm sure selling those by themselves is a huge can of worms, and fitting would be a nightmare for most people. It's the same issue with the lockbar inserts on frame locks - that's great and all, but who ever sells a spare lock bar insert in case yours wears out?

Maybe I will make it my mission to tune a back lock, and then I will like it better.

EDIT: After thinking about it, I think my post may come off as harsh towards the back lock, but really I just wish I found it more user friendly, and that over time it didn't loosen up like my Endura has. Hasn't yet been an issue, but it would be cool if there was a way to fix that. A stop pin design (ala Triad lock) is the true winner here, and if the lock ever loosened up, I'm betting one could somewhat easily machine a stop pin a few thou more than the current one, and basically have a brand new action.

[vivi]

There's a wide variety of lockback action out there. While many could be described as smooth, they definitely take a different type of force than detent based locks.

That can be both a good and bad thing.

I like the feeling of overcoming to self close of a lockback more than the herky jerky feeling of a stiff detent then little to no resistance. It feels more predictable I guess.

Compression locks can feel stellar right out of the box, but in my experience lockbacks and triad-locks take at least 6 months of EDC before they hit their sweet spot. Tri-ad locks in particular have a longer break in period for a few reasons I won't get into here.

I've never really gotten everyones issues with closing them one handed though. There's a lot of really easy ways. Like squeezing the lock release and pressing the spine against your leg. I grew up watching people do that with slipjoints, so that seemed like the obvious way to go for closing lockbacks.

Later on I developed other methods for closing them, like swinging them shut while pressing the lock release with my index finger, and guiding the blade shut with my index finger along the thumb stud or opening hole while my thumb unlocks the knife. Both feel very intuitive and easy for me.

Red Leader, how do you feel about the CBBL? To me it's the ultimate lock in terms of opening and closing feel (in regards to the blades movement rather than actuating the lock, mind you). It has a self close bias that feels predictable to overcome like a lockback, but with less effort required. They're very, very smooth right out of the box in my experience, and become buttery smooth after breaking in.

My biggest complaint with the CBBL is that it's basically only available in one model that appeals to me. Manix XL. I'd be all about a new CBBL 4-4.5" blade folder.

[Jeb]

V.
I am with you on a 4.5" Manix. Let's just make it out of the MagnaMax while their at it. We could call it ManiMax - XXL... now that would be a knife I would have to buy more than a couple...

[Red Leader]

Red Leader, how do you feel about the CBBL? To me it's the ultimate lock in terms of opening and closing feel (in regards to the blades movement rather than actuating the lock, mind you). It has a self close bias that feels predictable to overcome like a lockback, but with less effort required. They're very, very smooth right out of the box in my experience, and become buttery smooth after breaking in.

Well, first of all, I LOVE the Manix. And I got my dad a Manix XL for a gift because it felt awesome. It wasn't on my radar until I went to our first Seconds Sale this past November. That event really solidified myself and my son as knife/Spyderco junkies. Before that, I was *sort of* clueless, but now, we are *enlightened* lol. I only mention that because it was my first real experience with the Manix, and it opened my eyes to how good of a job they did on the ergos with that knife. It really stood out from the others there - and you basically hold hundreds of knives all day if you want to.

To me, the CBBL is incredibly smooth from the get-go, and while I thought the Manix I picked up from the Seconds Sale was smooth, they had a G10 version at the SFO that I randomly picked up and it was even smoother! I didn't think that was possible! Part of that smoothness of the CBBL is due to how well they finish the pivot surface that the ball rides on, and the other is due to the minimal contact surface of the ball on the pivot surface - there just isn't hardly any resistance. I get almost an inch of closing bias on the Manix, which of course is way more than any detent system, so that is a positive. Probably the most positive spydie flick knife I've ever tried...it is near effortless.

The CBBL does have some detractions for me, personally. One, is that the reports of people saying it is 'too strong' or 'painful'...they are real, and we should never minimalize that. After a long, hard day of shoving wire into terminal blocks and stuff, my hands might be shot, and the Manix is a real tough customer on days like those. And the spring is stiff. AND I can't really close it w/ just my thumb on one side like a cross bar lock, it takes the pinch grip, which can be a painful motion for a lot of people.

Now, I have heard that cutting a coil off or using a slightly lighter spring makes a world of difference - I haven't tried it yet, but I will eventually just to see how it affects the operation, good or bad. I have heard stellar things about the AWT kits for these knives and how they basically transform it...and it is almost a universal statement, so I'd like to give one of those a go.

The second main issue I have with the CBBL is the actual cage. I know there were the transparent ones that were breaking, but that was sort of an isolated issue. Still, it is made of plastic, and they are proud of the scales, and that is a weakness. There was a post ( I think it was on the Spyderco reddit page) where a guy accidentally dropped his Manix, and it must have smacked dead flat on the cage, and broke it, rendering the knife useless. I know that there are metal (flytanium?) cages that people upgrade to, but I have no idea on the durability of those parts.

The final thing I don't think is super great about the CBBL is that the strength of the lock comes from the 4 tiny screws holding the locking block on, and in multiple lock strength tests, the front two screws sheared off and broke the knife. This is where people will probably disagree with me, but I'd like to see if a crossbar / CBBL hybrid could be done, where a solid bar of metal goes across the locking engagement of the blade, through the liners, through the scales, and solidly locks up the blade with the entire handle of the knife, not just the locking block. Those scales (at least on the G10 version) are freakin' beefy, and would add loads of strength - BUT...find a way to still utilize the coil spring instead of those weird omega springs since they are not known for durability.

I know that there is some history there w/ Spyderco and the cross bar lock, so I won't fight that battle too hard, but since I picked up this Manix for a song, it is the perfect test bed to try out this crossbar lock idea. I have the idea of how to make it work w/ the coil spring, and it is pretty basic.

Other than that, I've heard that if you get a sticky lock with a CBBL, it can be really hard to get rid of the stick - again, don't know if that is true. I love how figety it can be, and I don't think I ever worry about 'lock wear' with the CBBL, so that is a nice positive, at least in my mind!

V.
I am with you on a 4.5" Manix. Let's just make it out of the MagnaMax while their at it. We could call it ManiMax - XXL... now that would be a knife I would have to buy more than a couple...

Magnamanix?

[Wartstein]

....While many could be described as smooth, they definitely take a different type of force than detent based locks.

That can be both a good and bad thing.

I like the feeling of overcoming to self close of a lockback...

...the CBBL? To me it's the ultimate lock in terms of opening and closing feel (in regards to the blades movement rather than actuating the lock, mind you). ...

That´s a good observation I totally can relate to.

I "grew up using folders" without having any idea how others would open, close, grip knives (where to GRIP knives is a whole different story, not suited for this forum... ) or what is "common knowledge / believes" (no one else I knew really carried and used folders, had no internet resp. then did not read up on knives till around 2018 and so on and so I came up with how to do things all alone).

Backlocks is just what I got used to and I much prefer the feel how they perhaps need a bit more force to overcome in opening over the "weak and flimsy" feel of other locktypes.

Can´t even really tell though IF they take MORE force or, as you say, it is rather a "different [to me more satisfying and more secure feeling] type of force".

I know that you, Vivi, don´t like to do so, but @Red Leader flicking open my backlocks is actually my default method of opening (NOT cause it´s "flashy", I personally just came to find it a bit more convenient, secure and quicker than slow rolling) and it is really not a problem, perhaps just takes a bit "getting used to" (and then it works with each finger, not only the thumb).

And there are quite some easy and convenient ways of closing backlocks one handed (actually the "drop the ricasso / choil on the forefinger" is probably my least favorite of those, despite it seems to be the most common one by far)

/ CBBL?

Close second-best locktype.

Good closing bias, easy operation, no cutouts in the handle that potentially could make for hotspots and super versatile when it comes to one handed closing: Activation with thumb and index finger, thumb and middle finger, only thumb, only index finger, only middle finger, drop the blade, guide the blade with finger in the opening hole or on the spine when closing... just perfect.

[Landshark99]

Sorry not a back lock fan, i own 23 Spydercos and only two are lock backs,

[aicolainen]

I don't mind the great closing bias, I also don't think the slightly perceptible lock rock is a deal breaker or anything.

I just don't like how stiff they are. They, to my limited knowledge, cannot be tuned to feel awesome like a liner/frame/compression lock. If I am wrong, please show me, please show me a Native 5 that can feel as amazing opening and closing as a really well tuned detent system. I cannot spydie flick most easily, closing is weird and awkward, especially the one handed method. For context, we have an Endura, LJ, Stretch 2, Chaparral and Native 5 in the house. I love them, but would love them even more if opening/closing them was a better experience. The LJ is pretty good. The Native 5 is gritty and stiff, and the Endura stiff. I've had the Endura and used it for 15 years, and it has quite a large amount of lock rock, so I'm dubious about the longevity of the lock over time.

Like vivi I just find lock backs to be smooth in a different way. And it just happens to be the way I prefer.
Of the back locks you mention, of which I all like, I find the N5 to stand out somewhat from the others. It’s almost mind boggling to me how a FRN back lock knife without liners and washers can be so drop shutty smooth, yet have so tight tolerances it locks up with literally no play in any direction.

I can’t, and have no intention, of forcing you to love back locks. We prefer what we prefer. But before you “give up on them” I urge you to find a G10/CruWear S2XL and take it for a spin. It’s not objectively better than a N5, just different. I would best describe it as a back lock Sebenza. Consistent smoothness throughout the full opening motion, like hydraulics.

[Brock O Lee]

..."extraordinarily average". It functions and is for the most part reliable, like vanilla ice cream...

My thoughts exactly, but put more eloquently.

The one standout feature is the self-close bias, something I value when I carry a folder in waistband.

I dislike the lock rock that is common with back locks, but learnt to ignore it. Probably one of my least favourite locks to be honest.

[Midnightrider]

Best lock. That is all.

You're close, but the back lock is #2; the liner lock is the best.

I have to agree with the part where you said the liner lock is best. I really don't like any other locks. That said, the back lock is less offensive than the compression lock.

With the Military and other liner locks, it's easy to operate the lock one-handed. I haven't seen (everything of course) any other lock you can operate with the same hand you're holding the knife in without moving your hand. Edited based on Jeb's comment below.

viewtopic.php?t=98258 will the real pointless thread please stand up

[Jeb]

Mid,

I can and do operate all my different knives with one hand. The only pocket Knives I have but don't use, that I can't single hand open and close are those that have the fingernail notch to open.

Probably why I don't use them any longer? I just collect them now, like old Case knives.

[Midnightrider]

You can unlock a P4 one handed? Man oh man! I have to see the youtube video on that :D

[Jeb]

I think it's Vivi, that has got a video of him doing just that. Me myself, I just clutch the lockback and close against my leg or if I am out of place under something working on lord knows what; I have been guilty of finish closing the knife by pushing the blade against something.

Now I will say this, with all my Spyderco knives, I have mine setup for the blade to swing freely when clutched. And you have to have your index finger right where the Police4 blade closes on it right up at the pivot where there is a part of the blade tang will close right to your finger.

This works perfect and if I am standing I will usually just grasp the knife and finish closing the blade all with one hand.

Now this comes with a warning!!! If you have your knives like mine, which they are all RAZORS, I mean Razor sharp, you have your index finger back a little to far from where that part of the blade tang comes down and into the grip, the top of your index finger is now bleeding.

It's not a setup for everyone, I just like all my knives like this and have purposely setup mine like this. They are all single hand open and close like this, unless I am out of place somehow like up under something and that is where I finish the closing against my leg or whatever might be close by.

Does this make any sense? Hard to type all this as opposed to telling and/or showing you lol.

[TkoK83Spy]

@Red Leader

Once you get out of the "newb" stage, you'll realize that the flickiness and fidgeting is really nonsense.

I agree with many here that the back lock is the best lock. Rock solid lock up. All this "lock rock" talk sounds like people intentionally looking to see if it can happen or is present. If you were to use a folder hard enough that that's becoming an issue...you're using the wrong knife anyways, should be using a fixed blade.

Back lock is ambidextrous, easy to use with gloves and indeed easy to operate with one hand, as been discussed already.

Been a popular style lock for many years across many companies...there's a reason for that.

[vivi]

You can unlock a P4 one handed? Man oh man! I have to see the youtube video on that :D

I don't understand why someone wouldn't be able to operate the Police one handed barring medical issues with their hands - it's designed for that.



here's a back-up link. streamable links can be embedded here but they now delete videos after two days - https://dubz.link/v/caf9d3

The first way is how I always close lockbacks. The second way is a method I came up with for the folks that say lockbacks are slow or dangerous to close because your fingers have to stay in the way of the blade.

I don't see what the big mystery is with closing lockbacks.

[vivi]

oh, and if you cannot get those methods to work for you for whatever reason, and want to drop the blade down like everyone seems to love doing....tilt the knife downwards and it's so much safer:



It's mind boggling to me all the debates we've had with handle forward, choil vs no choil, edge all the way to the handle etc. in relation to this closing method.

All of that, that entire discussion becomes 100% moot if you simply tilt your wrist a bit.

I wish every lockback had an edge to handle design like the Resilience.