Police XL Talk

[vivi]

Please keep in mind that if we use a mid-back-lock, then the "kick" has to land on the pivot for the lock, otherwise the blade edge will hit the spring holder. That's why there is a longer ricasso on models like the Endura. I have "removed" the long ricasso by either turning it into a finger-choil, so the front of the finger-choil becomes the "kick" or moving the "Handle forward" to the "kick", so the edge is close to the grip in either case. (Finger-choil or handle forward.

sal
______________________________________________________________________________________

"Continual improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind".

Speaking purely in terms of what's possible rather than what's practical, isn't there another option?

Bring the edge as far back to the handle as possible, without moving the handle forward, and utilize an internal stop pin like the chap to compensate for the lack of a kick?

Seems like the best solution in terms of raw edge length. But it wouldn't work for closing the way a lot of people want to close their lockbacks, and could add to the cost.

Or build it like a Centofante 3 as far as the kick goes....just no sharpening notch

[Meadowlark]

Please keep in mind that if we use a mid-back-lock, then the "kick" has to land on the pivot for the lock, otherwise the blade edge will hit the spring holder. That's why there is a longer ricasso on models like the Endura. I have "removed" the long ricasso by either turning it into a finger-choil, so the front of the finger-choil becomes the "kick" or moving the "Handle forward" to the "kick", so the edge is close to the grip in either case. (Finger-choil or handle forward.

sal
______________________________________________________________________________________

"Continual improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind".

Speaking purely in terms of what's possible rather than what's practical, isn't there another option?

Bring the edge as far back to the handle as possible, without moving the handle forward, and utilize an internal stop pin like the chap to compensate for the lack of a kick?

Seems like the best solution in terms of raw edge length. But it wouldn't work for closing the way a lot of people want to close their lockbacks, and could add to the cost.

Or build it like a Centofante 3 as far as the kick goes....just no sharpening notch

I brought back an astute thread yesterday.. is the handle forward design tough to implement as a mid backlock?

I love the astute design, it'd be great 1.5-2" longer w/ a backlock. Is a larger backlock version possible while retaining the edge to handle ratio of the o.g. astute?

[sal]

Hi Meadowlark,

Most things are "possible". The question is more; if it is a good business move? It would require a total re-design which in reality makes it a new model. Maybe even a new maker depending on the lock? Do sales justify the cost?

sal

[sal]

Hey Vivi,

The mid-back-lock was popularized by the Al Mar line, which used it on most of it's folders. We used the lock with permission from Al Mar. So the tradition of closing the knife a particular way goes back decades. In fact we were teaching that method of closing our mid-back-locks back in the '80's.

FYI, I'm considering making the model with both versions as a test. We'd have to do it in G-10, which raises the cost. It would give us a practical pragmatic way of making the determination based on what the customers purchase and how quickly.

I tested the "Handle Forward" design with the "Jumpers" in FRN to keep he cost down, which often influences sales. It was an expensive test and we'll probably bring back the Leaf Jumper as a Sprint sometime in the future. Which would make better use of the tooling and see if the market opinion has moved?

sal

[p_atrick]

Sal, what do you do with the test models? Ever think of having a raffle for forum members? For every $X donated to the charity of your choice, the forum member would get a raffle ticket. Dedicated fans could get to own a piece of Spyderco memorabilia, and a good cause gets some support. Just a thought.

[sal]

Hi P_atrick,

A noble thought for sure. It would be a vast undertaking to make such a project happen. We already donate to a number of charities with specific models, eg: a percentage of the Sage sales go to Alzheimers research. I'll keep it in mind.

sal

[vivi]

Sal,

I'm just thrilled you're even considering something along these lines. Choil or not, handle forward or not, I'm all in.

[CDEP]

Sal,

I'm just thrilled you're even considering something along these lines. Choil or not, handle forward or not, I'm all in.

I'm Plus 1 with Viv.

People wanted a choil-less Shaman. Others wanted a Native 5 with a Comp lock. Some wanted a Native 5 XL. Sal created the Bodacious, a knife I love more every time I use it.

So yeah, Sal, whatever you decide, I'm in.

[Wartstein]

...
...
Speaking purely in terms of what's possible rather than what's practical, isn't there another option?

Bring the edge as far back to the handle as possible, without moving the handle forward, and utilize an internal stop pin like the chap to compensate for the lack of a kick?

Seems like the best solution in terms of raw edge length. But it wouldn't work for closing the way a lot of people want to close their lockbacks, and could add to the cost.

Or build it like a Centofante 3 as far as the kick goes....just no sharpening notch

As mentioned several times already in this thread it is clear that a "traditional" backlock of course needs some amount of "kick"...

But like probably you I sometimes wonder
.... how short such a "kick" could be made and still be functional
.....as well as why the Chap approach with International stop pin is not used more often..

Or in other words:
...How much could the edge (not blade!) to handle ratio be improved on a backlock model specifically designed for that if people only would accept another closing method than the "drop the blade on the finger" just with that particular model...

[derangedhermit]

Speaking purely in terms of what's possible rather than what's practical, isn't there another option?

Bring the edge as far back to the handle as possible, without moving the handle forward, and utilize an internal stop pin like the chap to compensate for the lack of a kick?

Seems like the best solution in terms of raw edge length. But it wouldn't work for closing the way a lot of people want to close their lockbacks, and could add to the cost.

People seem to very much appreciate the locking characteristics of the Chaparral. A large back lock with no choil based on that type of design ("Saguaro"?) would be very interesting to me and maybe to a commercially-interesting number of others.

I think it would be seen, as the Chaparral is, as a premium design.

[Wartstein]

.....

... A large back lock with no choil based on that type of design ("Saguaro"?) would be very interesting to me and maybe to a commercially-interesting number of others.
..

Well, count me in that group... 110%..

[Mushroom]

In the past Sal has explained that his design philosophy concerning closing backlock models is rooted in a deep understanding of how Spydercos core customer base uses their knives. Sal, and Spyderco in general, have spent a great deal of time researching and developing their products to align with a majority of their customer bases needs and preferences. It's not a decision made purely out of designer preference - it is an informed decision based on decades worth of experience and feedback. They have a very good understanding of what works for the majority of their core customer market. Hard to fault them for sticking to what works.

Now that’s not to say that any other preferred closing method is wrong but rather, it is to emphasize that those preferences, while valued, can’t alter the nearly 50 years worth of market research and design development they've already done. At this point it should go without saying that Spyderco is open to feedback, so I do not mean to discourage anyone from sharing. If anything I would encourage it because of the willingness Spyderco has shown to consider new perspectives.

Speaking purely in terms of what's possible rather than what's practical, isn't there another option?

Bring the edge as far back to the handle as possible, without moving the handle forward, and utilize an internal stop pin like the chap to compensate for the lack of a kick?

Seems like the best solution in terms of raw edge length. But it wouldn't work for closing the way a lot of people want to close their lockbacks, and could add to the cost.

Or build it like a Centofante 3 as far as the kick goes....just no sharpening notch

A "kick" is not actually necessary for a backlock because, as you said, a stop pin can effectively accomplish the same function.

Backlocks have two pivots: Blade pivot and lock pivot. Without any stop pin, there has to be a blade kick that lands on or past the lock pivot to prevent the blade from over-rotating and crashing the edge into the backspacer, lockbar, etc. If the kick lands before the lock pivot, it can push the lock bar up and the blade will contact the backspacer, lockbar, etc. The Centofante 3 is affected by this because it does not have a stop pin and the kick lands before the lock pivot.

If there is enough space for a floating stop pin between the lock bar and blade, a blade kick would no longer be necessary to prevent over-rotating because the blade can't rotate beyond that stop pin. Same thing with an internal stop pin, like the Chaparral has - it negates the need for a traditional lock pivot blade kick.

When it comes to a Police XL (C.O.P ), I believe there might be enough space to use a floating stop pin and also accommodate both a full edge to the handle and enough unsharpened blade "kick" to safely drop on the finger when closing. I can provide a sketch of what I mean when I get some time to make one. None the less, I'm very interested to see Sal's solutions.

[vivi]

Nick,

I don't disagree with what you wrote in the first half of your reply. All your points were good and well thought out.

But, I can't help but feel lockback design may be held back to a degree by these built up habits.

One handed opening pocket knives were a pretty big departure in how they operate compared to stockmans and barlows. Pocket clips also changed how they were carried dramatically.

So to me the idea of pushing the envelope in this particularly small niche doesn't seem so radical. But I also understand Spydercos position - I'd also be reluctant to design a product that flies in the face of the methods I've been teaching customers for half a century.

Maybe Sal can come up with a Police XL lockback that satisfies all these opinions:

- Edge all the way to the handle
- Enough kick to use the drop down closing method
- Something to provide resistance to pressing the blade into the lock bar (like you pointed out is possible with the centofante 3/4....also SAKs, Buck 110's etc.)

While I don't care whether there's a kick or not, designing the folder with one might be easier than asking a bunch of ELU's to change how they close their knives

[sal]

Thanx for your input, Nick. We always appreciate responses. At this time, our factory in Taichung is the only one using an internal stop pin. A lot of our capability also depends on the makers.

sal

[p_atrick]

Vivi,

On a previous page, you talked about how we (those of us who use the blade-drop) need to expand our methods for closing a back lock knife one-handed. I looked over the videos you posted, and decided to give it a shot. It still feels a bit clumsy and not very secure with my Police 4 (it works like a charm on my Siren, however). I'm not totally sure this is an issue related to practice. My hand feels like its at its limit for dexterity when using only my index finger to close the blade. Wartstein's method of using the index finger to start moving the blade and then the thumb to close the blade feels better.

I don't think my hands aren't big enough to comfortably close the blade with only my index finger on a larger knife. Or, at the very least, when the distance between the Spydie hole and the lock bar becomes too large (see the very unscientific photo below). I wouldn't be surprised if this distance is related to blade length. I'm guessing that there are some physics at work. Either the lock becomes "weaker" when you shrink the distance between the hole and lock bar, or it becomes more challenging to disengage the lock when this distance decreases. Or maybe it is something altogether different. I'd be interested if anybody with some knife-making experience could shed some light on this.

[KeepCalm&Carrion]

All I really care about is a stainless (or something like a coated Micro-Melt PD#1) option with full serrations. If I can get it in G-10 and I get to choose between choil/handle-forward, all the better!

[vivi]

Vivi,

On a previous page, you talked about how we (those of us who use the blade-drop) need to expand our methods for closing a back lock knife one-handed. I looked over the videos you posted, and decided to give it a shot. It still feels a bit clumsy and not very secure with my Police 4 (it works like a charm on my Siren, however). I'm not totally sure this is an issue related to practice. My hand feels like its at its limit for dexterity when using only my index finger to close the blade. Wartstein's method of using the index finger to start moving the blade and then the thumb to close the blade feels better.

I don't think my hands aren't big enough to comfortably close the blade with only my index finger on a larger knife. Or, at the very least, when the distance between the Spydie hole and the lock bar becomes too large (see the very unscientific photo below). I wouldn't be surprised if this distance is related to blade length. I'm guessing that there are some physics at work. Either the lock becomes "weaker" when you shrink the distance between the hole and lock bar, or it becomes more challenging to disengage the lock when this distance decreases. Or maybe it is something altogether different. I'd be interested if anybody with some knife-making experience could shed some light on this.

did you try pressing the lock releaae with your index finger and swinging the blade shut?

the siren is the easiest model to do that method with that I've tried.

I've been doing the swing shut with my index finger method for over 15 years, so it's second nature.

how about pressing the lock release with your thumb and pushing the spine of the blade against your leg? lets of people close slipjoints that way, and I close buck 110's that way, but for some reason that option is never on the table when people talk about closing modern knives one handed.

[vivi]

Thanx for your input, Nick. We always appreciate responses. At this time, our factory in Taichung is the only one using an internal stop pin. A lot of our capability also depends on the makers.

sal

Thanks for the info Sal. I guees the internal stop pin idea would be off the table then, since I'd imagine a Police XL should be made in Seki.

Ok, here's an out of the box idea.....

what about using a cobra hood as a stop pin, the way a lot of makers use thumb studs as blade stops?

It's another way to eliminate the need for a kick, and as an added bonus the cobra hood makes a come back. I always enjoyed them on my old ATR and Salsa.

[p_atrick]

did you try pressing the lock releaae with your index finger and swinging the blade shut?

the siren is the easiest model to do that method with that I've tried.

I've been doing the swing shut with my index finger method for over 15 years, so it's second nature.

how about pressing the lock release with your thumb and pushing the spine of the blade against your leg? lets of people close slipjoints that way, and I close buck 110's that way, but for some reason that option is never on the table when people talk about closing modern knives one handed.

I've tried those methods. Some I like more than others. The swing-shut method is real easy on the Siren; less so with the Police. I'm really curious about the proportions/distance between Spydie hole and lock bar. Could they be changed? What benefits arise? Any unexpected consequences? I'm wondering if a lock back knife could be better designed to be opened and closed one-handed without a kick, choil, or internal stop pin. Of course, designing something to better fit my hand will leave some people out in the cold. I've never really thought much about the closing of a back lock until this thread. I bet it can be improved, but I don't have experience to back up that claim.

[vivi]

did you try pressing the lock releaae with your index finger and swinging the blade shut?

the siren is the easiest model to do that method with that I've tried.

I've been doing the swing shut with my index finger method for over 15 years, so it's second nature.

how about pressing the lock release with your thumb and pushing the spine of the blade against your leg? lets of people close slipjoints that way, and I close buck 110's that way, but for some reason that option is never on the table when people talk about closing modern knives one handed.

I've tried those methods. Some I like more than others. The swing-shut method is real easy on the Siren; less so with the Police. I'm really curious about the proportions/distance between Spydie hole and lock bar. Could they be changed? What benefits arise? Any unexpected consequences? I'm wondering if a lock back knife could be better designed to be opened and closed one-handed without a kick, choil, or internal stop pin. Of course, designing something to better fit my hand will leave some people out in the cold. I've never really thought much about the closing of a back lock until this thread. I bet it can be improved, but I don't have experience to back up that claim.

I think that's an interesting line of thinking.

I know the Pacific Salt 1 & 2 have a pretty big difference in terms of how far the lock release is from the opening hole.....