High HRC 52100 Mule Team

[Flash]

After watching Shawn Houston’s video on edge stability, it got me thinking if there could be a possibility of a high hardness 52100 Mule like the 66 HRC example featured in his video.



Very impressed with its capabilities at such low geometry.

What do people think?

[Mage7]

Yes please!

I have been really appreciating resistance to edge deformation over wear resistance lately. I mean, we have these edges that can cut literal miles of cardboard before dulling, except if you get clumsy and run them up against a hard surface you've just exponentially lowered the life of the edge, and likely exponentially raised the time needed to repair it. Can't tell you how many times I have cut a tool out of a clamshell package only to see that despite my best efforts I ended up making mild contact and completely rolling my edge over.

[Manixguy@1994]

In 2008 , I had the 52100 Mule tested for hardness at the Caterpillar Metlab , results were 63-64 . MG2

[Flash]

In 2008 , I had the 52100 Mule tested for hardness at the Caterpillar Metlab , results were 63-64 . MG2

BBB’s has shown it can reach higher Hrc whilst giving great edge stability. It can clearly take outright abuse at 66.
It’s amazing the capabilities of certain steels which we consider run-of-the-mill that perform exceptionally well once the heat treatment is refined to an optimum level.

[Manixguy@1994]

In 2008 , I had the 52100 Mule tested for hardness at the Caterpillar Metlab , results were 63-64 . MG2

BBB’s has shown it can reach higher Hrc whilst giving great edge stability. It can clearly take outright abuse at 66.
It’s amazing the capabilities of certain steels which we consider run-of-the-mill that perform exceptionally well once the heat treatment is refined to an optimum level.

I was not disputing BBB our anyone heat treating 52100 , I was just relaying information I got when the 52100 Mule was released . I’m sure the steel can be pushed higher . MG2

[Flash]

In 2008 , I had the 52100 Mule tested for hardness at the Caterpillar Metlab , results were 63-64 . MG2

BBB’s has shown it can reach higher Hrc whilst giving great edge stability. It can clearly take outright abuse at 66.
It’s amazing the capabilities of certain steels which we consider run-of-the-mill that perform exceptionally well once the heat treatment is refined to an optimum level.

I was not disputing BBB our anyone heat treating 52100 , I was just relaying information I got when the 52100 Mule was released . I’m sure the steel can be pushed higher . MG2

No it’s all good. 63-64 is excellent I’d be more than happy with that. I’m just surprised such a steel has even more potential.

[Manixguy@1994]

In 2008 , I had the 52100 Mule tested for hardness at the Caterpillar Metlab , results were 63-64 . MG2

BBB’s has shown it can reach higher Hrc whilst giving great edge stability. It can clearly take outright abuse at 66.
It’s amazing the capabilities of certain steels which we consider run-of-the-mill that perform exceptionally well once the heat treatment is refined to an optimum level.

I was not disputing BBB our anyone heat treating 52100 , I was just relaying information I got when the 52100 Mule was released . I’m sure the steel can be pushed higher . MG2

No it’s all good. 63-64 is excellent I’d be more than happy with that. I’m just surprised such a steel has even more potential.

I was surprised with results , if I remember correctly it was a little higher than what was stated at that time . Guys in the Metlab were also Spyderco guys so they were excited to see the first Mule . MG2

[Mage7]

In 2008 , I had the 52100 Mule tested for hardness at the Caterpillar Metlab , results were 63-64 . MG2

BBB’s has shown it can reach higher Hrc whilst giving great edge stability. It can clearly take outright abuse at 66.
It’s amazing the capabilities of certain steels which we consider run-of-the-mill that perform exceptionally well once the heat treatment is refined to an optimum level.

Well a BBB heat-treat sounds like a good enough excuse to do another Mule in this steel

[Flash]

It would be great to see what the steel could do - it clearly has a ton of potential to unlock but it only makes sense if people are interested in such a blade.

We are probably gonna need more than just three people.

[Pokey]

Correction, four people.

[sal]

Hi Flash,

Talkin' story;

When we first began the Mule Team project, I selected 52100 for an early run. That's what I was forging at the time, and I really like the steel and how sharp it would get. I picked 63-64 as a good all around solution. I ran my blades harder, but I was differently hardening.

The first Mule Team idea that I presented to the forum was shot down. I tried again a couple of years later and response was more favorable, so I tried again. 52100 was very difficult to find in sheet, so we had to purchase steel from Europe. The project was new and I was the driver. Eventually Kristi assisted me and Purchasing was chasing steel. The project ran for a while, but as interest waned and inventory grew, we had to drop the project. It was because of renewed interest shown on the forum that we picked it up again.

Eric, Kristi and crew worked very hard to bring the posts together to form the Mule Team sub forum. We believe that the Mule Team project is a good thing for Spyderco, customers, foundries and the industry and we hope to be able to continue providing the Mules for you to test.

We've managed to stay on top of providing materials from all over the world and the project requires a lot of attention, years and focus before a model is offered. We've not offered any material a second time as that was not in the spirit of the project. Maybe we will in the future, but adding a couple of Rc points to a material really doesn't justify, at this time, the effort required to make that happen. It is possible that we may in the future because the demand from newer folks that didn't get an opportunity to get earlier Mules is growing.

One of the materials in-the-works has been in-the-works for years jus to be able to get the material, which we now have and are planning to fit it into the manufacturing queue.

sal

[cabfrank]

I'm very eager to find out what that is. I'm way overdue acquiring a Mule.

[weeping minora]

I'm very eager to find out what that is. I'm way overdue acquiring a Mule.

I'll guess that this will be the Alleima (Sandvik) 19C27 Mule.

[blueblur]

I’d be down to try a harder 52100. I really like how the Spyderco folders I have in 52100 respond to sharpening. I also wouldn’t mind trying some SE 52100.

[Mage7]

Maybe we will in the future, but adding a couple of Rc points to a material really doesn't justify, at this time, the effort required to make that happen. It is possible that we may in the future because the demand from newer folks that didn't get an opportunity to get earlier Mules is growing.

If you showed me where I could buy one of the old ones--at the original price, even unadjusted for inflation--then I still probably wouldn't be as interested in it at that hardness.

I may be a be a lower common denominator, but what I want is higher yield strength and a steel that's also tough enough to support it. That's why I still haven't pulled the trigger on an AEB-L Mule. I don't need the extreme toughness of that steel for the tasks I'm going to do with it, which don't include batoning, prying, etc. Neither do any of the other Mules I have/had (15V, K294, T15, HIC) need to do that. So it feels like a waste of toughness, when instead it could be taken advantage of to run a very hard edge with the ductility not to chip out. T15 and Rex45, for example, are at about 65 and 66 HRC respectively (from what I can find) and hold a keen edge that doesn't deform easily better than the 15V or K294. On the other hand, Maxamet and HIC were just a touch too brittle and didn't lead to the same improvement because they were too prone to microchipping for me.

Of course it's entirely possible that perhaps it's just for me and my uses that such toughness and hardness on the T15 and Rex45 is the perfect sweet spot for me, but I would much sooner take the chance on a super-hard 52100 Mule giving me what I want than a middling-hard 52100 Mule. I mean, maybe over the AEB-L for sure, but I would just be wondering what I might be missing with that extra point or two of hardness I see in Shawn's video.

Maybe I just need to buy a custom...

[Bolster]

If someone wants an uber-hard 52100 mule, can't the existing mule be custom re-heat treated upward?

[Mage7]

If someone wants an uber-hard 52100 mule, can't the existing mule be custom re-heat treated upward?

Hmmm never even thought about that, but that seems like a good solution if possible. I don't know nearly enough about the heat treatment process, but my knee-jerk reaction is that it would screw up the grain structure to normalize, anneal, re-quench and re-temper.

[Bolster]

If someone wants an uber-hard 52100 mule, can't the existing mule be custom re-heat treated upward?

Hmmm never even thought about that, but that seems like a good solution if possible. I don't know nearly enough about the heat treatment process, but my knee-jerk reaction is that it would screw up the grain structure to normalize, anneal, re-quench and re-temper.

Shawn could tell us, if he were on this thread. Calling @Deadboxhero