What the burr?

[Drumlooper]

Hi there,
I am a beginner at sharpening and the burr thing is confusing me. I get, that it’s a method to make sure, that you get your edge to apex, when you don’t know the edge angle on your blade. But don’t you think that alternating strokes on a course stone, checking the correct angle with the sharpie method until it cuts paper will get the same result and with less steel loss (from there you can go to finer stones and strops to get it super sharp). I still have a hard time - but I’m getting better - to get a really sharp edge. I tried the burr method since everyone on YouTube seems to say you have to, with mixed results, but on my Spyderco edges I get fantastic results with the Sharpmaker with alternating strokes, without forming a burr. I would really like to know the opinion of the sharpening experts here.
Thanks.
Tom

[Mk-211]

Outdoors55 has some of the best blade sharpening videos.

This video, he explains everything that he's doing.

[yablanowitz]

In my personal opinion, "work one side until you raise a burr along the entire length of the edge" is the worst sharpening advice ever given. But what would I know, I've only been sharpening knives for sixty years. There is a reason I don't watch YouTube.

[vivi]

raising burrs is a good tool for beginners to understand, but after a certain level of experience is reached raising one is counter productive. I never intentionally raise them.

[cycleguy]

Sounds like you are on the right track and have the awareness to get the edge in order. I use the burr method and I use the sharpie method, each tells you the same thing … one is tactile from the one side of the knife and the other is visual from the other side of the knife. I slightly burr the entire edge and work back and forth finer each pass. Touch ups I find the rough spot and refine. I haven’t been sharpening for a long time but the result is sharp edges and I have yet to wear a knife out.

CG

[Doc Dan]

The old way we were taught when we were kids in the 60's was to sharpen only one side for a bit until it was feeling a bit sharp and then do the other side. This raised a burr, of course. It works very well as long as one remembers to remove the burr before using the knife. Even the Lansky and Worksharp uses this method.

With sharpeners like the Sharpmaker, one alternates sides. I still finish with a side swipe on each side to make sure I don't have a burr.

Edit: This is not how I sharpened as a kid, just that some taught this. It is helpful when reprofiling, though, as with a worksharp or lansky system.

[cycleguy]

The old way we were taught when we were kids in the 60's was to sharpen only one side for a bit until it was feeling a bit sharp and then do the other side. This raised a burr, of course. It works very well as long as one remembers to remove the burr before using the knife. Even the Lansky and Worksharp uses this method.

With sharpeners like the Sharpmaker, one alternates sides. I still finish with a side swipe on each side to make sure I don't have a burr.

Information I got growing up was one pass one side then flip over and one pass then repeat. I sharpened knives this way for “60 years” and never did have a sharp knife. Once I learned to burr the entire edge, I’ve always been capable of a sharp knife.

You will learn to detect the slightest of burrs as you get more experience and really won’t waste metal doing it.

CG

[Wandering_About]

I'll add another vote for making a burr. A small one is best, and does not waste metal, or at least not much of it. If you match angle well deburring should not take very long assuming the steel is not "cheese grade." I do still like a strop loaded with abrasive for final deburring and refinement, and strongly prefer diamond stropping compound.

I never use sharpie on the edge. A 10x or 15x loupe is an extremely helpful tool.

[Henry - get both]

Hi Tom,

Sharpening can be a can of worms. You are right in thinking that an obvious burr should not be the goal. The problem is that conventional sharpening (no de stressing or de burring) with a coarse stone is going to make a meaningful burr even with low pressure / alternating strokes. You are on point with the Sharpmakers ceramic rods which are fine enough that there is not going to be a major burr formed.

To do what you thought was possible with conventional sharpening you must start with what is often called edge de stressing. I do it by rubbing the edge into a Sharpmaker rod to dull the knife. This sets a foundation for zeroing in on an apex with steel that has not been fatigued. You then sharpen like normal and get the knife sharper and sharper as that apex narrows. Make sure the edge livens up at the same rate tip to heel (shaping the bevel for even access to the apex is key). A broken in coarse diamond stone is great. Eventually the knife is sharper than you thought possible off of any stone much less a coarse diamond stone. If you keep sharpening the knife will get less sharp. Think of it as trying to not fully apex. A jig type sharpener can be nice for proving out concepts.

In practice you might just keep your typical folder bevel shaped at like 15 degrees per side on your coarse plate and then keep it sharp at 20 degrees per side on the Sharpmaker. Catching hairs above skin off of some fine rods is a practical and maintainable level of sharpness. Blowing through hairs directly off of an Atoma 400 is more of a sharpening experiment.

[vivi]

shaving sharpness at 400 grit is simply indicative of good technique. something's up if that's not happening for someone.

[Guts]

I wouldn't overthink it OP. The burr is just an indicator you've reached the apex at a certain spot and it's time to concentrate on other areas or switch sides. If you feel confident enough in your angle holding and know for sure you've apexed without forming a burr, by all means no need to form one. I try to minimize it for sure, but I don't have the fine motor control nor eyesight (barring checking every few strokes with a microscope) to tell if I'm at the point just before a burr is formed.

If you're alternating sides every pass on the sharpmaker you're probably not going to form a burr because the edge will just even out every alternating stroke. Just speaking for myself, but I don't worry about steel loss. We're talking thousandths of an inch even with a big burr. It'll take literally dozens and dozens of sharpenings to ever wear out a knife fully. If you're worried about steel loss on a knife, buy two

[Scandi Grind]

I can't speak to whether or not raising a burr reduces the edge life on an edge, I haven't noticed this to date personally, however I have heard it said by quite a few people. I think this becomes perhaps more important with steels run harder and with higher carbide content. I raise burrs all the time and I often don't get a satisfactory edge until I have felt a burr, but it doesn't have to be a large burr. However I don't use a Sharpmaker, I freehand on stones. Although I do raise burrs when sharpening, I am very carefull to remove them, and I always end with alternating strokes to ensure that the burr has been minimized to the best of my ability. If I really want to make sure the burr is minimized I can micro bevel at a few degrees more obtuse than I sharpened, just doing four alternating strokes on my fine waterstone.

I wouldn't be too afraid of raising burrs. To say that the technique doesn't work would be to ignore thousands of years of practical sharpening accomplished using this method very effectively. While it may not be the best method from some perspectives, it has not become antiquated by any means. However, if you are interested in sharpening methods that avoid burrs, you might look into the methods advocated by Cliff Stamp. He had a term he used for his method, but the name he used escapes me. Plateau Sharpening, maybe?

[Fastidiotus]

Far from an expert but put me in the camp of it not being necessary and sometimes more of a pain than anything to purposely raise a large easy to see burr. The direction you sharpen will also be a huge factor to burr formation.

I think many beginners tend to sharpen in one direction. This is great if you're learning to freehand on stones. It simplifies things and keeps things more consistent as you get a feel for holding a consistent angle. With the edge facing your body if you use only a pushing stroke that will lead to the largest and easiest burr formation as the material is being removed towards the apex. With the edge facing your body using only pull strokes it will still be possible to raise a burr but it will be much smaller as the apex is now the leading edge of material removal. On a fixed angle system this will be the opposite where pulling the stone towards you will create the larger more visual burr and pushing the stone away from you will shearing the material off of the apex first and will result in a very minor burr that you will have to feel for or try to catch in just the right light.

While freehanding I push and pull as it's twice as fast but always end on a pull stroke. I'll frequently add a pull stroke on the opposite side to keep the burr formation to a minimum. I just find it easier to keep any burr knocked down since I know I'm definitely going to be removing enough material during the process anyways.

Worksharp put out a fun and interesting video comparing techniques that you might find worthwhile.

[Henry - get both]

shaving sharpness at 400 grit is simply indicative of good technique. something's up if that's not happening for someone.

I mean compellingly hanging hair sharp directly off of a 400 grit electroplated diamond stone. The consensus I see online is to meander through a bunch of stones and a few strops just to target that one test.

[RustyIron]

I tried the burr method since everyone on YouTube seems to say you have to,

I get fantastic results with the Sharpmaker with alternating strokes

When I get confused, I find that it sometimes helps to step back and redefine my goals. Is your goal to make burrs, or is it to make sharp knives?

By your own admission, you have the ability to make sharp knives. When you listen to the Tick-Tacks and Snapplechats, your edges aren't as sharp. That should be a clue. Any fool with an Android phone and internet access can become Youtube Famous. Beware.

What is a burr? A burr is the super-thin edge of the edge that gets bent over just through contact with your stone. Let's for a minute think about a thin steel bar, or spring, or wire. You've done this plenty of times. You bend it back and forth until it breaks. Why does the wire break? Because bending it weakens it. Now we need to ask if making a big giant burr is a good idea. Maybe it's not. You'll have to ask someone smart if you want to know for sure.

In my experience, some types of steel really like to form burrs. Others do not. Removing a lot of material quickly with a coarse stone also tends to form bigger burrs. Using a gentle touch with finer stones does not.

My advice is to keep making sharp knives, while being aware of what's going on at the edge. Heed the advice of experts where warranted. Sometimes your edge will come out better than expected. Sometimes the edge will be disappointing. Do more of what makes the edge good, and less of what disappoints you.

Recently it was discovered that a famous Picasso was painted over an older painting. Even the masters sometimes created work that they weren't happy with, so they started over.

[Scandi Grind]

shaving sharpness at 400 grit is simply indicative of good technique. something's up if that's not happening for someone.

I mean compellingly hanging hair sharp directly off of a 400 grit electroplated diamond stone. The consensus I see online is to meander through a bunch of stones and a few strops just to target that one test.

Vivi is more talented than I am and can get better results than I do, but even I can get scrape shaving edges off of something as coarse as a 140 plate. Not hanging hair sharp, but it will remove hairs with light pressure on the skin. While going through a progression of finer stones can improve hair shavingness, if you can't shave off of a coarse stone, most likely you won't have much luck trying to get it to shave by refining the edge in my experience. Also for typical cutting tasks, a super refined edge isn't necessarily ideal. Most people cut cardboard more than hair, so optimizing for shaving probably won't be preferrable on an EDC blade.

[Henry - get both]

[/quote]

Vivi is more talented than I am and can get better results than I do, but even I can get scrape shaving edges off of something as coarse as a 140 plate. Not hanging hair sharp, but it will remove hairs with light pressure on the skin. While going through a progression of finer stones can improve hair shavingness, if you can't shave off of a coarse stone, most likely you won't have much luck trying to get it to shave by refining the edge in my experience. Also for typical cutting tasks, a super refined edge isn't necessarily ideal. Most people cut cardboard more than hair, so optimizing for shaving probably won't be preferrable on an EDC blade.
[/quote]

I was speaking to what I see on IG and Youtube. The obsession with grit progression and strops. Not that I think it is good or bad.

I have been an edge junky for 20 years. I have gotten hanging hair sharpness directly off of a 400 Atoma.

Joe Calton is my favorite sharpener on youtube.

[zhyla]

If you need to form a burr just make sure you know how to remove it reliably. While it can be tricky to know for sure that you apexed, it’s extremely hard to know you’ve removed all the burr. A cheap loupe helps

[bdblue]

I asked myself the same question long ago- why not alternate one side to the other until you hit maximum sharpness and stop then. I wasn't sure if this was even possible, you would have to be really good to know you have reached maximum sharpness, go beyond that a few strokes and now you've got a burr.

The burr is a byproduct of reaching the apex of the edge. If you can do it some other way then that works too. Consider if you have a blade that is dull for part of its length but not the rest. You can't just sharpen bits of the blade so eventually you will have parts of the blade that get sharpened more than other parts and one way or another you will raise some burr there. This is the reality of sharpening a blade that has actually been used. You might be able to hit the point of maximum sharpness at one point along the edge but other places will have gone beyond that and started a burr and some other places will need more sharpening.

[Spyderfreek]

In my personal opinion, "work one side until you raise a burr along the entire length of the edge" is the worst sharpening advice ever given. But what would I know, I've only been sharpening knives for sixty years. There is a reason I don't watch YouTube.

Agreed, I switch sides every 20-30 passes to keep the burr size manageable.