CBBL for a "choil-less" Native?

[ChoilsChoilsChoils]

In previous discussions about designing a choil-less Native 5 or "Mini/Midsized-Bodacious", people have commented that a backlock wouldn't work from a packaging standpoint. I haven't seen sketches explaining this, but the argument is that a choil-less blade, choil-less handle and back-lock mechanism combined don't allow sufficient seating depth for the blade in the handle.

It seems like the caged ball bearing lock of the Manix, Dodo, etc provides most of what I want from a lockback (closing bias, ambidexterity, no weird assymetrical cutouts on the front or back aspects of the handle). The button compression lock of the Sage 6 doesn't appeal to me, because IMO it trades one problem (handle spine cutout) for a new one (risk of accidentally actuating an exposed button), and is still a detent-based lock with no closing bias.

A "Bodacious-ified" Native 5 that retains the original's best-in-class backlock would be my ideal 3" blade folder, but if that's not technically feasible it looks like the CBBL would be the best solution. Would like to hear from folks who have enough technical knowledge to say whether it would work.

[Evil D]

I doubt it, because it seems like you need a finger choil to work around the lock mechanism when the blade is closed, sort of like the Axis lock does.

[derangedhermit]

I doubt it, because it seems like you need a finger choil to work around the lock mechanism when the blade is closed, sort of like the Axis lock does.

I'm confused by what I think you are saying. Plenty of Axis-type-lock knives have no choil, with cutting edge very close to the handle. I can't imagine you don't know this, hence the confusion.

[Jesla]

I have lots of back locks that don’t have choils…. I’m not following your premise for this thread….

[nerdlock]

I doubt it, because it seems like you need a finger choil to work around the lock mechanism when the blade is closed, sort of like the Axis lock does.

The D'Allara 3 and the P'kal have no choils and both use the BB/CBB locks, so I don't think that it a limiting factor for that sort of design.

[Wartstein]

In previous discussions about designing a choil-less Native 5 or "Mini/Midsized-Bodacious", people have commented that a backlock wouldn't work from a packaging standpoint. I haven't seen sketches explaining this, but the argument is that a choil-less blade, choil-less handle and back-lock mechanism combined don't allow sufficient seating depth for the blade in the handle.

It seems like the caged ball bearing lock of the Manix, Dodo, etc provides most of what I want from a lockback (closing bias, ambidexterity, no weird assymetrical cutouts on the front or back aspects of the handle). The button compression lock of the Sage 6 doesn't appeal to me, because IMO it trades one problem (handle spine cutout) for a new one (risk of accidentally actuating an exposed button), and is still a detent-based lock with no closing bias.

A "Bodacious-ified" Native 5 that retains the original's best-in-class backlock would be my ideal 3" blade folder, but if that's not technically feasible it looks like the CBBL would be the best solution. Would like to hear from folks who have enough technical knowledge to say whether it would work.

Perhaps you are confounding things here - ?

What is actually said in such discussions as far as I recall:

- A backlock Shaman or Bodacious would probably not be possible in the exact same shape and form, because such a tall blade would not fit in the exact same handle.
Why? While a comp.lock or linerlock tab folds out of the way when the blade goes into the handle, the lockbar of a backlock does not.
So this has nothing to do with "choil-less or not" or "packaging standpoint" in the first place

- Spyderco would probably not make a backlock folder with a cutting edge as long relative to the handle as for example the Caribbean has
Why? Because people like to close backlocks by dropping some unsharpend part of the blade on the forefinger, and the typical Spyderco backlock needs some kind of "kick"

- So I think a choilless backlock Native should be possible just fine, designed "handle forward", like the Jumpers

[Wartstein]

I doubt it, because it seems like you need a finger choil to work around the lock mechanism when the blade is closed, sort of like the Axis lock does.

The D'Allara 3 and the P'kal have no choils and both use the BB/CBB locks, so I don't think that it a limiting factor for that sort of design.

Sure, those two exist - but still the CBBL is a "limiting factor" concerning how much space a blade has in the handle compared to other locks, especially comp.lock and linerlock where the lock tab folds out of the way when the blade goes into the handle.
A CBBL just DOES take up space in the handle that has to be considered when designing a knife - by giving the blade a coutout, make the blade narrower or the handle taller...

[Wartstein]

@ChoilsChoilsChoils for illustration what I meant previously, see also Spydercos own page about locking mechanisms: https://www.spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/ ... echanisms/

- A backlock takes up a rather narrow, but long space right in the top of the handle:

So it can not have an overall as tall blade in relation to the handle height as a comp.lock or linerlock potentially can (cause their locktabs move out of the way when the blade folds in). But this has not much to do with "choil or not" (other than a typical Spyderco backlock needs some unsharpened bladepart for the "kick")


- A CBBL in its current shape takes up a considerable amount of space (just) in the front part of the handle[/u]:

So a CBBL design has to work around this, by giving the blade a cutout or recurve, making the whole blade narrower, the whole handle taller....

[Igi964]

For a choilless Native a compression lock is needed. Something like a Lil Bodacious

[Wartstein]

For a choilless Native a compression lock is needed. ...

Why?
They could make a choilless backlock Native, just like they did with the Jumpers ?

(And if more people finally would be willing to adopt one of the alternative backlock closing methods instead of "drop the ricasso/choil on the forefinger": A backlock Spydie with a lot of cutting edge all the way to the handle would be so nice - perhaps it would need an internal stop pin though to maximize the cutting edge length as much as possible)

[Jesla]

For a choilless Native a compression lock is needed. ...

Why?
They could make a choilless backlock Native, just like they did with the Jumpers ?

(And if more people finally would be willing to adopt one of the alternative backlock closing methods instead of "drop the ricasso/choil on the forefinger": A backlock Spydie with a lot of cutting edge all the way to the handle would be so nice - perhaps it would need an internal stop pin though to maximize the cutting edge length as much as possible)

…and if people didn’t drive like idiots, we wouldn’t need a 1000 lbs. of bumpers/belts and bags on cars either…or why are handles on doors nearly always placed right next to the part of a door that will crush your fingers?…. Dunno

[Evil D]

I doubt it, because it seems like you need a finger choil to work around the lock mechanism when the blade is closed, sort of like the Axis lock does.

The D'Allara 3 and the P'kal have no choils and both use the BB/CBB locks, so I don't think that it a limiting factor for that sort of design.

Yeah I forgot about those I guess that's true.

[Igi964]

For a choilless Native a compression lock is needed. ...

Why?
They could make a choilless backlock Native, just like they did with the Jumpers ?

(And if more people finally would be willing to adopt one of the alternative backlock closing methods instead of "drop the ricasso/choil on the forefinger": A backlock Spydie with a lot of cutting edge all the way to the handle would be so nice - perhaps it would need an internal stop pin though to maximize the cutting edge length as much as possible)

Jumpers still have the "ricasso" unsharpen part of the blade. It is only covered by the handle. Its a illusion
When You looks for pictures of inside Native 5. You will see with backlock the choil in inevitable When You want the same shape and size. Only way to achieve it is with compression lock. I know You dont like this type of lock, but many do
What I mean is compact 3inch knife with full edge and no hump.Just like Bodacious to Shaman. We all can dream

[Mushroom]

Does someone need sketch to see why a choil-less Native 5 won't work in its current configuration? I can make you one.

[Manixguy@1994]

Does someone need sketch to see why a choil-less Native 5 won't work in its current configuration? I can make you one.

Go for it Nick ! Great idea . Dan

[derangedhermit]

It seems to me the Centofante has exactly the arrangement that isn't supposed to be possible? What am I missing?

[Enactive]

It seems to me the Centofante has exactly the arrangement that isn't supposed to be possible? What am I missing?

The Centofante models 3 and 4 lack a kick. All current back lock Native 5 based models have a kick, which prevents incidental contact between the blade edge and lock bar/ spring assembly.

[Mushroom]

@ChoilsChoilsChoils The argument is not "that a choil-less blade, choil-less handle and back-lock mechanism combined don't allow sufficient seating depth for the blade in the handle" - It is that the NATIVE 5'S backlock mechanism would not allow sufficient space for a blade without a choil in the handle. It's not necessarily a limiting factor that is exclusive to the Native 5 either but anytime a lock mechanism is placed in-line with the blade, it will always need to be accounted for when the blade is closed.

It seems to me the Centofante has exactly the arrangement that isn't supposed to be possible? What am I missing?

Assuming you mean the Centofante 3, yes that is a prime example of a backlock without a 50/50 choil.

Does someone need sketch to see why a choil-less Native 5 won't work in its current configuration? I can make you one.

Go for it Nick ! Great idea . Dan

Sure thing!



We can see the lock bar itself gets in the way of the blade on the lockback Native 5 without a choil. It is unlikely that a CBBL would work for the same reason. There is no space for it.

(Please keep in mind that this is not an exact representation of the Native 5 but it is close enough to get the point across. The concept without a choil is nothing more than my own speculated projection of how that might come to fruition. In general this is just a quick sketch for demonstration and not intended to show explicit accuracy.)

[nerdlock]

I doubt it, because it seems like you need a finger choil to work around the lock mechanism when the blade is closed, sort of like the Axis lock does.

The D'Allara 3 and the P'kal have no choils and both use the BB/CBB locks, so I don't think that it a limiting factor for that sort of design.

Sure, those two exist - but still the CBBL is a "limiting factor" concerning how much space a blade has in the handle compared to other locks, especially comp.lock and linerlock where the lock tab folds out of the way when the blade goes into the handle.
A CBBL just DOES take up space in the handle that has to be considered when designing a knife - by giving the blade a coutout, make the blade narrower or the handle taller...

@Wartstein my statement is directed to @Evil D 's statement with regards to choils and the CBBL mechanism. I'm not arguing the fact that CBBLs do take up space in a folding knife and that design considerations must be made - that's why the OP said it need not be strictly confined to Native 5 perimeters, but could be "bodacious"-ified, meaning a different design, but Native-inspired. My point stands that choils aren't necessarily a limiting factor in designing CBBL knives.

[Wartstein]

@Wartstein my statement is directed to @Evil D 's statement with regards to choils and the CBBL mechanism. I'm not arguing the fact that CBBLs do take up space in a folding knife and that design considerations must be made - that's why the OP said it need not be strictly confined to Native 5 perimeters, but could be "bodacious"-ified, meaning a different design, but Native-inspired. My point stands that choils aren't necessarily a limiting factor in designing CBBL knives.

My apologies should I have gotten you wrong.
Of course you are right in that a CBBL does not necessarily require a choil! (But, as we both say, the space that the CBBL takes up in the handle has to be considered in some way when designing a folder)