440C & FRN USA Made Value Line

[SpyderEdgeForever]

The BDN1 is great steel.

[Aladinsane]

The BDN1 is great steel.

I hope it is, I just got a UKPK in BD1N, but haven’t used it yet. Super sharp!

[PaloArt]

I will say that Eric has been working on just such a design for several years and is getting close.

We probably won't use much 440C. We did a lot of testing with 440C and found that it doesn't do well with very thin edges. BD1N is probably the lowest we would go for blade material. 420HC is used for handles and locks.

Although, as a high performance company, we will have a minimum standard, FRN and a blade steel, and we will always have the higher end materials for those that wish to have that.

sal

Hello Sal,

This is very interesting and exciting information. I hope Eric will be able to finalize this project one day. I do love Spyderco and I do own a few pieces since I fell in love with your company when I was 15 years old. Older I get, more I do appreciate simple tools. UK PK, Urban, Squeak for example, are fantastic simple cutting tools in decent "basic" (at least nowadays) steels. Linereless, jimpingless U.S. made backlock might be interesting start, something similar in concept (not necessarily designwise) to C05 and in FRN. We know UK PK can be made and it is for decent price. To have something relatively affordable, made in U.S. would be a hit I guess. With prices creeping up every year, demand for more exclusive knives growing as well, more simple affordable knife would be a breeze of fresh air to some of us. Heck, make it in more colours and I will buy few of them.

Thank you for being present on the forums and thank you very much for communicating with us. We know Eric is taking over more and more responsibilities but it is nice to see You, sir, are still with us fans and adressing our posts

[vivi]

Very interesting responses. Thanks for the discussion.

I'm honestly surprised at how many people are embracing this sort of idea. Makes me think the market for well executed budget models by US companies could be bigger than I thought.

I don't have my heart set on 440C by any means. It's just an example of a less expensive steel that I've enjoyed using. I've also liked BD1, BD1N, 420HC, AUS10, AEBL, 12C27, 14C28N, A2, O1, 1095, SK5, etc.

The point is after trying a lot of super steels, such as S30V, S60V, S90V, S110V, ZDP189, K390, M4, 4V, 3V, Rex45, Super Blue etc. I don't really feel like I require them.

They're not bad steels. I really like M4 in particular for its excellent balance of sharoening response to edge holding. I like how S30V heat treated by Spyderco holds a toothy edge for a really long time. I think K390 is an edge retention monster.

But, just like I enjoy G10 as well, I don't feel like I need it.

I have countless knives in extremely basic steels with plastic or wood handles that perform very well for me.

$5 Kiwi knives in their soft mystery stainless are my most used kitchen knives at home.

$30 (at the time) Victorinox fibrox 10" chef knife has given me 20 years of good performance.

$15 1055 machetes that have been taking abuse for years.

$25 humble fiskars hatchet in a basic carbon steel with plastic handle out cuts a lot of more expensive hatchets I've tried due to good geometry.

$5-20 Moras that carve wood better than $100-200 bushcraft knives, again because of geometry. No they don't have the premium feel of a full tang custom with hand contoured micarta, but you're not beating their $/performance ratio any time soon.

Opinels and Swiss Army Knives aren't going to hold an edge as long as anything in the CPM world, but their geometry will cut circles around most tactical style knives.

Interesting thought Vivi. Something of which we are always well aware. Though I question a USA made quality knife for $25, lower costs are always a consideration. That's why we have FRN Chief's made with BD1N.

With the Chinese Yuan being 1/6th the value of a US dollar, that realm would indeed be challenging to reach, made in the US. We, as well as our competitors are always thinking of ways to offer the "Economy" models, which we have been doing since we began making knives.

FRN Tooling is very expensive in the US and we really have to be sure that a model will survive the high FRN tooling costs before investing.

I will say that Eric has been working on just such a design for several years and is getting close.

We probably won't use much 440C. We did a lot of testing with 440C and found that it doesn't do well with very thin edges. BD1N is probably the lowest we would go for blade material. 420HC is used for handles and locks.

Although, as a high performance company, we will have a minimum standard, FRN and a blade steel, and we will always have the higher end materials for those that wish to have that.

sal

Sal,

I'm glad this sort of project is already on your mind.

I appreciate the high end of knives, at least with regards to raw performance. Not so much with aesthetics etc. I appreciate having the chance to try out so many suoer steels thanks to your offerings over the years. It's been a lot of fun.

I'm a big fan if BD1N and previously BD1. At one point I even went out of my way to look for knives in those steels. That's one of the reasone I tried out the Ronin 2.

I love the BD1N Z-cuts. They're exactly the type of knife I had in mind, just in fixed form. Simple work horse knives that sell themselves based on solid design choices and good geometry. I have used them in my role as a chef and I find them preferable to traditional paring knives in many ways. Their harder steel holds an edge longer while still being economical, and the off set blade makes them more versatile.

I trust your testing. If you found BD1N to do better at low angles, then that sounds like a better choice to me. I know AEB-L works well here too.

I'll be keeping an eye out for whatever economy minded models come out. Those are more my speed than say, a Drunken.

[DSH007]

I support any effort to introduce a Golden-made value line. I'm hoping this is the idea behind the upcoming Charisma model..

[SpyderEdgeForever]

The BDN1 is great steel.

I hope it is, I just got a UKPK in BD1N, but haven’t used it yet. Super sharp!

Can you please update all of us here on how it works for you? I would love to read your review of it's performance

[Aladinsane]

The BDN1 is great steel.

I hope it is, I just got a UKPK in BD1N, but haven’t used it yet. Super sharp!

Can you please update all of us here on how it works for you? I would love to read your review of it's performance

Thank you! I will do my best. This knife will be my work knife, so I should be able to use it for cutting some boxes, plastic wire ties, and plastic bags, etc... It is a UKPK drop point in BD1N.

[Scandi Grind]

Your singing my tune, vivi! I understand that cost of manufacture is higher in the U.S. than other places, but I would be willing to spend more than what Chinese knives go for to get it made in my home country, even if it is a bit more of a basic design. What I don't see the point of is paying for super steels that don't gain me much, so I really like this idea. I would also love to see a similar mentality applied to a line of fixed blades.

[Skywalker]

No thanks... Been there, done that with 420HC, AUS-6, AUS-8, 14C28N, Tru-Sharp, etc. Not interested in paying Spyderco's US labor/overhead prices for knives in those steels. The loss of wear resistance even to VG-10, much less S30V, is real and noticeable.

Reducing material costs is only going to get you so far price-wise. The US-made BD1N lightweights are already $30-40 more expensive than a VG-10 Delica or Endura and to be honest I don't get the argument for them either.

But, at this point most of what I'm buying are exclusives where dealers can set their own prices outside of MAP, or MAP holiday knives (hello, $187 Bodacious), so take all that with a grain of salt.

We need more Golden models priced like the SPY27 UKPK at $105 MAP - now there's one that feels like a good deal.

[toomanyquestions]

BD1N is probably the lowest we would go for blade material.
sal

Good to know!

I have found this discussion intriguing; the potential tradeoffs provide food for thought.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Would a BD1N Endura work out?

[zuludelta]

I've been messing around with a lot of lower end steels lately.

420HC, AUS8, whatever steel Victorinox & carbon Opinels use, carbon V Case, etc.

I'm not 100% certain but I think Victorinox uses 1.4116 (or something very similar) in their Swiss Army knives. The carbon steel Opinels are made from something they call "XC90", which is a trade name for a variant formulation of 1084 steel, as far as I am aware.

Don't get me wrong. I like G10. I like S30V. But if there were a budget version of all the Golden models for substantially less, I would choose those versions.

I prefer high alloy PM steels for my work knives—I'm one of those guys who literally "break down a warehouse full of cardboard every week" that you mention LOL—but I wouldn't mind carrying a hypothetical 440C or BD1N version of, say, the Yojimbo 2 for my EDC/personal carry, and I might prefer it as my EDC/personal carry over the more expensive standard version if the price difference was significant enough & the build quality does not suffer for it.

While I really love the performance I can get out of steels like S30V, S45VN, S110V, SPY27, CruWear, K390, MagnaCut, and Maxamet in my work setting, I don't really need top-shelf edge retention in my folding knives outside of work (as a specific example, I use a K390 Delica 4 exclusively as my small work knife, while an old VG10 Delica 4 is my small knife of choice for almost everywhere else). Depending on the context, a budget version of a knife can be easier to carry & use despite "lower end" materials, because one doesn't have to worry as much about the cost of a replacement if it gets lost or irreparably damaged.

[Hopsbreath]

Would a BD1N Endura work out?

BD1N is an American steel made in Pennsylvania. The Japanese lineup is typically Japanese made steels that don’t require shipping from the other side of the planet prior to assembly. I recall S30V being used as a “premium” steel compared to VG-10 and they didn’t exactly fly off the shelves. I bought mine below MAP when the retailers unloaded them. After those lackluster sales I don’t imagine there’s going to be much clamor for an added cost due to shipping steel that’s not exactly viewed as “better” than VG-10.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Would a BD1N Endura work out?

BD1N is an American steel made in Pennsylvania. The Japanese lineup is typically Japanese made steels that don’t require shipping from the other side of the planet prior to assembly. I recall S30V being used as a “premium” steel compared to VG-10 and they didn’t exactly fly off the shelves. I bought mine below MAP when the retailers unloaded them. After those lackluster sales I don’t imagine there’s going to be much clamor for an added cost due to shipping steel that’s not exactly viewed as “better” than VG-10.

Thank you. That was actually something I wondered.

[Fastidiotus]

There's another company that does this. They'll make an FRN & AUS series version, and a G10 and CPM steel version. The basic models are usually $30-70 while the higher end ones are usually $130-200. I can't think of a single folding knife from them where I've bought the premium version when both options are available

Plus, the steel nerd side of my brain wants to see how these basic steels would perform with Spydercos excellent heat treating protocols. I've considered getting a Cat just for that reason.

Everyone was so worried when CS got bought out that the quality would drop but they've been on an absolute terror with their value line. Though one of my Aus10a blades is so soft it's almost impossible to deburr and that's not something I've experienced with a Spyderco. I've had Spydercos come dull and with uneven grinds but when they hit the stones they've always cleaned up well.

I do agree though It would be fun to see Spyderco push the heat treat limits of budgets steels like 14c28n. As much as I hate 8cr13, Spydercos really is in a different league from all other manufacturers. It would be fun to see them sprint value steels pushed to their limits heat treat wise, but you're right it would probably be wildly unpopular with just about everyone.

Get a Cat. It may only be a 1.5 finger knife in your XXXL hands but it's Spydercos best value line knife.

[ugaarguy]

Interesting thought Vivi. Something of which we are always well aware.

I will say that Eric has been working on just such a design for several years and is getting close.

We probably won't use much 440C. We did a lot of testing with 440C and found that it doesn't do well with very thin edges. BD1N is probably the lowest we would go for blade material. 420HC is used for handles and locks.

Although, as a high performance company, we will have a minimum standard, FRN and a blade steel, and we will always have the higher end materials for those that wish to have that.

sal

I'm glad to read that Spyderco is aware of the market desire for a value priced US made model, and that's actually been in the works behind the curtain for so long. With BD1N as the minimum steel, I wonder where the cost savings are going to come vs the current lineup. You already have the Para 3 LW ($133.50 MAP), Manix 2 LW ($136.50 MAP) and the upcoming Lil' Native LW ($120 MAP); all US made with FRN handles, BD1N blades, and minimum metal internals. I'm curious to see what the value solution turns out to be.

[jwbnyc]

^^^ This^^^

It’s going to be difficult to get down below the current pricing on CTS BD1N. I can find knives in that category at about $12-15.00 lower than MAP (not advertised) but not at $20.00 less.

Perhaps some have had better luck there?

Will the new facility allow further savings?

You can’t get blood from a stone.