Can the Opening Hole be improved?

[cabfrank]

Or repeat what he says if you do.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Someone suggested Spyderco mill the inner hole to give it better grip rather than make it smooth.

Who suggested this? Maybe they can explain why.

A fellow knife user who commented to me about Spyderco designs. They think under wet or difficult conditions the finger could slip while using the opening hole as it is made.

Your “friend” completely misunderstands how the thumbhole opening works and how force is applied. I recommend you not listen to this “friend” anymore.

Thank you for your help on this.

A related question on this topic: how do the designers at Spyderco determine what diameter to make the opening hole on a given blade? Is that decision based on the size and thickness of the blade or what factors?

[zhyla]

Thank you for your help on this.

A related question on this topic: how do the designers at Spyderco determine what diameter to make the opening hole on a given blade? Is that decision based on the size and thickness of the blade or what factors?

I didn’t help you. I said I don’t believe you. Stop making these posts.

[Danke]

They should get back to basics and put out a chakram.

[ugaarguy]

Someone suggested Spyderco mill the inner hole to give it better grip rather than make it smooth.

Who suggested this? Maybe they can explain why.

A fellow knife user who commented to me about Spyderco designs. They think under wet or difficult conditions the finger could slip while using the opening hole as it is made.

Let's apply a little critical thinking to this. Spyderco introduced the C88 Salt in late 2003. So for nearly 21 years now Spyderco has been continuously producing and expanding the offerings in the Salt line. This is a line of knives optimized for use in marine environments, and heavily marketed as such to marine users. It's easily the largest selection of marine use folders on the market. This forum, with regular interaction from Sal and Michael Janich, has been in operation the entire time that the Salt knives have been sold. Spyderco has done CQI on the Salt knives based on user and community feedback. Hardware has been coated, bearing detent balls have been changed from steel to ceramic, additional blade steels have been introduced, etc. Spyderco has even mass produced a folding version of a knife designed by a forum member who's a professional salt water kayak fisherman.

Beyond the Salt series, Spyderco has donated countless folders to service members who were deployed in the GWOT. Spyderco Knives have been sold in US Military Exchange stores since at least the early 2000s. From personal experience I can tell you that Spyderco has one of, if not the best Mil/veteran/LE/first responder professional purchase programs in the industry with OpFocus.

If there were issues with using the opening hole in wet or difficult conditions, I'm confident they would have come to light by now.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

Interesting discussion--thank you all for sharing your thoughts. Although I am a member of the R&D team, I can't speak for all designers, nor do I feel there is an absolute "policy" on hole design and placement. In my own design process, I focus on maintaining a natural position of the hand during the opening and achieving as much of a straight-line push of the thumb as possible. I feel it's also important to know that, in most cases, you will not engage the entire circumference of the hole with your thumb, only the upper, leading edge.

In my opinion, the hole's path must be offset far enough from the pivot pin to allow an adequately high leverage point. This must also be done three dimensionally, not just on paper. In many cases, this element is what leads to the inclusion of a "hump" in the blade design. While some folks don't like that, typically, if you look closely, it is the design element that allows the handle to remain narrower while still providing highly functional opening ergonomics.

The "lower" the hole in relation to the pivot pin, the more the path of your thumb most push perpendicular to the handle (at least initially) rather than in a straight line. For my needs, that becomes a complex motor skill, which is more difficult to execute under stress.

I am also old school. When I first met Sal in the mid-1990's, he and the Spyderco sales Crew were still demonstrating "Spyder Drop" openings. As I've explained in recent issues of the Spyderco byte newsletter, this style of opening and tip-down carry is what allowed all early Spyderco knives to deploy the exact same, regardless of size. When I evaluate a knife, I still consider this element of its functionality. Again, this is where "humped" blade shapes shine, as they allow a pinch grip of the blade on the hole in the closed position. When I write copy for the Spyderco catalog, Reveals, etc., I also try to call out this quality as a "fully accessible Trademark Round Hole"--a searchable term if you use the digital catalog as a shopping tool.

The lock mechanism and engineering of it also have a significant impact on the perceived ease of use of a Round Hole. Even within the same lock type, the engineering can be very different. Opening a Native 5 is a more deliberate effort than opening an Endura. Part of that difference is the Endura's "hump" and the higher leverage point it provides; however, the shape of the tang and the way that shape interacts with the spring pressure of the lock bar also make a significant difference. If you're going to compare "hump" to "no hump," all other things should be absolutely equal. That's rarely the case.

One final thought: Hole size and placement go hand in hand with handle size and shape. Evaluating those is necessarily subjective because we all have different hands. People who judge knife designs "absolutely" based only on their own personal preference are, in my opinion, somewhat unreasonable. While I'll admit that some designs fall completely short when it comes to ease of one-hand opening, the vast majority do not. The perceived ease of use of these designs is, however, still completely subjective. One individual's opinion of them cannot be absolute for everyone else (especially if he's never actually handled the knife and is judging on looks alone).

Ultimately, knives are a bit like shoes. If you walk into a shoe store with size 10 feet, obviously, some shoes will fit you and many won't. That doesn't make all the other shoes completely "wrong," just not right for you...

Stay safe,

Mike

[Bolster]

...People who judge knife designs "absolutely" based only on their own personal preference are, in my opinion, somewhat unreasonable... One individual's opinion of them cannot be absolute for everyone else (especially if he's never actually handled the knife and is judging on looks alone).

Well said! I've always enjoyed humped designs, and now I have a better idea why that is! Thanks Michael.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Thank you so very much, Michael, for your concise and superb explanation. This helps expand my knowledge of the opening hole and increases my appreciation for Spyderco.

[vivi]

I think the opening hole could be 'supplemented' via the ATR 'cobra hood'. This provides a secondary / backup method of opening should your thumb not fully engage the thumb hole, and also provides a much more comfortable thumb rest when using the knife.

I think it would be cool to see these offered as an aftermarket/spyderco option for adding to some of Spydercos most popular models, thats secured with set screws pressing along the side of the blade as a friction fit.







Cobrahood + Wave option I think would also be popular as a bolt on addition.

I owned a Salsa and ATR in the past and IMO its a shame the cobra hood has gone extinct.

It makes opening even easier and like you said, it provides a much more comfortable thumb ramp when the knife is locked open.

[Doc Dan]

@SpyderEdgeForever thanks for an interesting topic of discussion. This design feature is usually taken for granted and not discussed as fully as it should be, nowadays.

Thank you @Michael Janich for the interesting and informative response.


I have to say that for me, the Spydie Hole is the most intuitive opening method. That may change in 20 years when another innovator like Sal comes along with something no one ever thought about. Until then, no studs, only the Spydie Hole for me.

[mark greenman]

Hey, All:

Interesting discussion--thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

....

Hi Mike, thanks for chiming in.

While we have you, informal survey - when you use the opening hole, are you opening with your thumb nail, or thumb pad?

[mark greenman]

I think the opening hole could be 'supplemented' via the ATR 'cobra hood'. This provides a secondary / backup method of opening should your thumb not fully engage the thumb hole, and also provides a much more comfortable thumb rest when using the knife.

I think it would be cool to see these offered as an aftermarket/spyderco option for adding to some of Spydercos most popular models, thats secured with set screws pressing along the side of the blade as a friction fit.







Cobrahood + Wave option I think would also be popular as a bolt on addition.

I owned a Salsa and ATR in the past and IMO its a shame the cobra hood has gone extinct.

It makes opening even easier and like you said, it provides a much more comfortable thumb ramp when the knife is locked open.

Yeah the Cobra Hood was a nice feature. If I had to guess, it's probably tricky drilling and tapping the blade for the 'hood mounting screws. I recall reading that was also why we didn't see more knives like the P'kal with the (also great) removable wave rod. Which is another feature I think would be popular.

[akapennypincher]

Can the trademarked Spyderco Opening Hole be improved or have all known methods been tried and it is perfect ?

Someone suggested Spyderco mill the inner hole to give it better grip rather than make it smooth.

Your are asking can one improve on opening hole on Spyderco, maybe, could, but IMHO your over thinking problem that is non existent. Build you own knife with New Improved Opening Hold, then get patent on your unique Knife, then go to flooded knife market make a killing, or go busted.

[Michael Janich]

Hi Mike, thanks for chiming in.

While we have you, informal survey - when you use the opening hole, are you opening with your thumb nail, or thumb pad?

I use the corner of the pad of my thumb. As a righty, it would be the left corner of my thumb, just below where the left side of the fingernail meets the top curve. I also do not hold the closed knife completely flat or completely vertical. When I cradle it naturally in my fingers, fingertips hooked around the edge of the tip-up clip, the handle is angled about 45 degrees to vertical. That's what allows the corner of my thumb to catch the inside edge of the hole.

Stay safe,

Mike

[vivi]

Hey, All:

Interesting discussion--thank you all for sharing your thoughts. Although I am a member of the R&D team, I can't speak for all designers, nor do I feel there is an absolute "policy" on hole design and placement. In my own design process, I focus on maintaining a natural position of the hand during the opening and achieving as much of a straight-line push of the thumb as possible. I feel it's also important to know that, in most cases, you will not engage the entire circumference of the hole with your thumb, only the upper, leading edge.

In my opinion, the hole's path must be offset far enough from the pivot pin to allow an adequately high leverage point. This must also be done three dimensionally, not just on paper. In many cases, this element is what leads to the inclusion of a "hump" in the blade design. While some folks don't like that, typically, if you look closely, it is the design element that allows the handle to remain narrower while still providing highly functional opening ergonomics.

The "lower" the hole in relation to the pivot pin, the more the path of your thumb most push perpendicular to the handle (at least initially) rather than in a straight line. For my needs, that becomes a complex motor skill, which is more difficult to execute under stress.

I am also old school. When I first met Sal in the mid-1990's, he and the Spyderco sales Crew were still demonstrating "Spyder Drop" openings. As I've explained in recent issues of the Spyderco byte newsletter, this style of opening and tip-down carry is what allowed all early Spyderco knives to deploy the exact same, regardless of size. When I evaluate a knife, I still consider this element of its functionality. Again, this is where "humped" blade shapes shine, as they allow a pinch grip of the blade on the hole in the closed position. When I write copy for the Spyderco catalog, Reveals, etc., I also try to call out this quality as a "fully accessible Trademark Round Hole"--a searchable term if you use the digital catalog as a shopping tool.

The lock mechanism and engineering of it also have a significant impact on the perceived ease of use of a Round Hole. Even within the same lock type, the engineering can be very different. Opening a Native 5 is a more deliberate effort than opening an Endura. Part of that difference is the Endura's "hump" and the higher leverage point it provides; however, the shape of the tang and the way that shape interacts with the spring pressure of the lock bar also make a significant difference. If you're going to compare "hump" to "no hump," all other things should be absolutely equal. That's rarely the case.

One final thought: Hole size and placement go hand in hand with handle size and shape. Evaluating those is necessarily subjective because we all have different hands. People who judge knife designs "absolutely" based only on their own personal preference are, in my opinion, somewhat unreasonable. While I'll admit that some designs fall completely short when it comes to ease of one-hand opening, the vast majority do not. The perceived ease of use of these designs is, however, still completely subjective. One individual's opinion of them cannot be absolute for everyone else (especially if he's never actually handled the knife and is judging on looks alone).

Ultimately, knives are a bit like shoes. If you walk into a shoe store with size 10 feet, obviously, some shoes will fit you and many won't. That doesn't make all the other shoes completely "wrong," just not right for you...

Stay safe,

Mike

Lots of really good thoughts here.

Comparing the Pacific Salt to the Catcherman to the Siren.....


The Pacific is much easier for me to open and close, but I'm not wild about the steep thumb ramp.

The Catcherman is a little tougher to close the way I close lockbacks one handed, and slightly trickier to open, due to the smaller hole. But I love the very mellow thumb ramp.

The Siren is one of few Spyderco knives I have a less than 100% success rate opening with a slow thumb role. Because the opening hole is small and slightly recessed into the handle. But I love the complete lack of a thumb ramp.

It's a tricky balance to strike if you prefer no to little thumb ramp.

One design that struck an exceptional balance for me was your Yojumbo design. That model has a very tall blade so it can be easy to open one handed while lacking a thumb ramp.

But not every design can afford to have such a tall blade.

[cjk]

I think the opening hole could be 'supplemented' via the ATR 'cobra hood'. This provides a secondary / backup method of opening should your thumb not fully engage the thumb hole, and also provides a much more comfortable thumb rest when using the knife.

I think it would be cool to see these offered as an aftermarket/spyderco option for adding to some of Spydercos most popular models, thats secured with set screws pressing along the side of the blade as a friction fit.







Cobrahood + Wave option I think would also be popular as a bolt on addition.

I owned a Salsa and ATR in the past and IMO its a shame the cobra hood has gone extinct.

It makes opening even easier and like you said, it provides a much more comfortable thumb ramp when the knife is locked open.

Yeah the Cobra Hood was a nice feature. If I had to guess, it's probably tricky drilling and tapping the blade for the 'hood mounting screws. I recall reading that was also why we didn't see more knives like the P'kal with the (also great) removable wave rod. Which is another feature I think would be popular.

I don't think that drilling and tapping a hole is any big deal as other makers do this every day to install thumb opening disks.
I'd think it was more likely that the models with a cobra hood didn't sell all that well and were discontinued.
A cobra hood PM2 or Para 3 might make a neat dealer exclusive.

[Netherend]

No

[Meadowlark]

Thank you for your help on this.

A related question on this topic: how do the designers at Spyderco determine what diameter to make the opening hole on a given blade? Is that decision based on the size and thickness of the blade or what factors?

I didn’t help you. I said I don’t believe you. Stop making these posts.

What's wrong with his posts?

[RustyIron]

I'm not supposed to say anything, but you guys are trustworthy. Just promise not to tell anyone, as preliminary testing isn't expected to be completed until the first quarter of 2025. The first new models will be formally announced at the Blade Show in June. In the quest for constant quality improvement, the antiquated "hole in the blade design" will be replaced by the Double Orifice Opening Knife Izula Edge, or D.O.O.K.I.E. for short. Early testers enthusiastically report that the two holes are nearly twice as good as the old single-hole design.

[wrdwrght]

Doesn’t the trademarked opener already have two holes? When I look at one side of the blade, I can’t see the other hole until I bring it into view. /jk