Trash etiquette

[Ocho]

THESE are "proper tools"

[Mk-211]

I work with OCHO, he pointed me towards the forums.

I like to think I helped start his knife addiction. We like talking about knives of all kinds.

It does surprise me that a lot of the guys use cheap knives. I know I've seen that knife he posted.

We make good money, a Kershaw Blur or Spyderco Tenacious are good starter knives. Under $100 bucks, depending on the model.

When they hear that, it's like he said, if it's not a $10 Harbor Freight knife, it's insanely priced!

Most people just don't think about what they carry, who made it or the blade steel. They just stick it in their pocket and go about their business.

I always have a Lansky Blademedic sharpener in my bag. When they ask, I run through to get a workable edge on it. They all seem happy that it's reasonably sharp. That's about the most work I'm willing to put in on a $10 knife.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

First of all, despite your best intentions, telling someone they NEED to do something is not a very effective approach in general. Allowing them to see the limitations of their current knife would be a better approach. Then discuss those pain points with them and offer a solution (another knife) that address the problems they've identified in concrete ways.

That said, assuming their knives are functionally safe to operate, I would simply take their knives and as they have asked... 'work your magic'. In my view, this means take whatever edge angle is on the blade from the factory and cut it in half angle-wise and use a very coarse finish at the apex. This alone will almost certainly performance higher than many factory knives.

It seems silly if you've never done the experiments to prove it out to yourself but an extreme low class steel/heat treat can easily outperform an expensive PM steel with careful heat treat by simply lower both the angle and finish on the apex for the cheap knife. This has always been the case and no amount of advances in steel/heat treat will matter more than geometry.

Don't believe me, try it on their knives and simply compare for yourself over as many controlled cutting runs as possible.

Please allow me to reiterate.
I've never mocked or belittled any of my associates for their choices. And I'm not denying the fact that a proper edge can vastly improve the performance of a blade. ****, the handle of a toothbrush can get a wicked edge with the proper heat treat and grind.
( don't ask me how I know ).
But the fact of the matter is that in my industry you need to have Reliable Tools. And if we can spend $200 on a flashlight, $300 on a pair of boots, or $1,200 on a new iphone. There's no reason why you should be out here carrying a $20 junk knife that is going to fail on you the first time you have cut through zip ties or a steel belted radial tire that some tweeked out transient placed on the tracks in order to stop my train so he can rob it.
A friend is someone who's going to tell you when you have a booger hanging from your nose.. instead of not saying anything because they didn't want to embarrass you. I work in a rough industry with grown men who should be able to take a little constructive criticism.
But in today's world of political correctness, everything is offensive. So we walk on eggshells to avoid a talk with HR.

Again, I was speaking in general about telling people what they need to do. In general, nobody responds well to being told what to do. Adults want to be treated like adults, rather than children. Telling someone they need to do something is treating them like a child, IMO. I agree they would be unreasonable to have a tantrum over being told what to do but when someone tells me what to do I can guarantee you that it has the exact opposite effect of getting me to do whatever they want me to do. When's the last time you did something just because somebody told you so even if you disagreed?

I'm also sorry to inform you that while I can agree with you on the fact that true friends tell people what they need to hear... it's again not likely to go over well in reality because I'd wager most people's view of 'friends' has more to do with what someone can give them (even if it's intangible/unconscious) that fills a desire/want that they have or pads their ego in some way to help them feel superior. True friends indeed are willing to lose a friendship in order to speak the truth that needs to be communicated... but again in today's world you're more likely to make enemies treating others like a true friend.

How much does one need to spend on a knife to get a reliable tool? Price is not the best indication of quality, in an entirely strict sense. Sure, sometimes this is true or perhaps even true most of the time. $10 will get you a lot of knife in the world of 1095 class steel. If you really care that much about your coworkers having reliable tools then I'd say just buy them something like a $10 Mora they can keep in a front pocket or on a belt. We're here at the Spyderco forum but honestly the type of work you are describing really is fixed blade territory despite the fact you've referenced folders, etc.

I'd also caution you thinking of a rough industry/trade/etc. as being exclusive to men who can endure anything. Look at the military and all the suicides, etc. If anything I'd say these industries just make it more important for men to hide anything that may be perceived as a sign of weakness that will be preyed upon by predatory types of men who seek to inflate their ego at the expense of others. Any time you mention the word 'should', what you are ultimately doing is making a judgement and the problem with that approach is we never have enough information/knowledge to come to the correct understanding 100% of the time.

[ykspydiefan]

"But once the subject of cost comes up, it's like
"WHA?!, you paid how much for that?! That's CRAZY! I can get 10 of these for that price! As they answer a text on their $1,200 iPhone.."

There is one person I will kindly remind of their words and point them back to the gas station. The rest is mostly fair game and depends on the relationship, but work is a whole different ball game.

I do not really have that many people asking me for help with their knives, but I did just recently. I pointed out all of the good things about the knife and we agreed on all of it. Then, we discussed all the things we were about to do for the week hunting, and what we needed knives to do and he quickly agreed that he had the wrong knife. 2 days in, with a few feather sticks and some food prep he agreed that the blade was dull as... and sharpened like gum. I brought a stone for him, and he was amazed that my Magnacut Mule just kept cutting and cutting. He realized his knife was junk on his own.

I think it is poor etiquette to buy junk and fill garbage dumps. Good etiquette is about doing good things with good tools. Poor etiquette is taking a knife to a gun fight. Good etiquette is being patient with people who do not understand etiquette.

[Ocho]

First of all, despite your best intentions, telling someone they NEED to do something is not a very effective approach in general. Allowing them to see the limitations of their current knife would be a better approach. Then discuss those pain points with them and offer a solution (another knife) that address the problems they've identified in concrete ways.

That said, assuming their knives are functionally safe to operate, I would simply take their knives and as they have asked... 'work your magic'. In my view, this means take whatever edge angle is on the blade from the factory and cut it in half angle-wise and use a very coarse finish at the apex. This alone will almost certainly performance higher than many factory knives.

It seems silly if you've never done the experiments to prove it out to yourself but an extreme low class steel/heat treat can easily outperform an expensive PM steel with careful heat treat by simply lower both the angle and finish on the apex for the cheap knife. This has always been the case and no amount of advances in steel/heat treat will matter more than geometry.

Don't believe me, try it on their knives and simply compare for yourself over as many controlled cutting runs as possible.

Please allow me to reiterate.
I've never mocked or belittled any of my associates for their choices. And I'm not denying the fact that a proper edge can vastly improve the performance of a blade. ****, the handle of a toothbrush can get a wicked edge with the proper heat treat and grind.
( don't ask me how I know ).
But the fact of the matter is that in my industry you need to have Reliable Tools. And if we can spend $200 on a flashlight, $300 on a pair of boots, or $1,200 on a new iphone. There's no reason why you should be out here carrying a $20 junk knife that is going to fail on you the first time you have cut through zip ties or a steel belted radial tire that some tweeked out transient placed on the tracks in order to stop my train so he can rob it.
A friend is someone who's going to tell you when you have a booger hanging from your nose.. instead of not saying anything because they didn't want to embarrass you. I work in a rough industry with grown men who should be able to take a little constructive criticism.
But in today's world of political correctness, everything is offensive. So we walk on eggshells to avoid a talk with HR.

Again, I was speaking in general about telling people what they need to do. In general, nobody responds well to being told what to do. Adults want to be treated like adults, rather than children. Telling someone they need to do something is treating them like a child, IMO. I agree they would be unreasonable to have a tantrum over being told what to do but when someone tells me what to do I can guarantee you that it has the exact opposite effect of getting me to do whatever they want me to do. When's the last time you did something just because somebody told you so even if you disagreed?

I'm also sorry to inform you that while I can agree with you on the fact that true friends tell people what they need to hear... it's again not likely to go over well in reality because I'd wager most people's view of 'friends' has more to do with what someone can give them (even if it's intangible/unconscious) that fills a desire/want that they have or pads their ego in some way to help them feel superior. True friends indeed are willing to lose a friendship in order to speak the truth that needs to be communicated... but again in today's world you're more likely to make enemies treating others like a true friend.

How much does one need to spend on a knife to get a reliable tool? Price is not the best indication of quality, in an entirely strict sense. Sure, sometimes this is true or perhaps even true most of the time. $10 will get you a lot of knife in the world of 1095 class steel. If you really care that much about your coworkers having reliable tools then I'd say just buy them something like a $10 Mora they can keep in a front pocket or on a belt. We're here at the Spyderco forum but honestly the type of work you are describing really is fixed blade territory despite the fact you've referenced folders, etc.

I'd also caution you thinking of a rough industry/trade/etc. as being exclusive to men who can endure anything. Look at the military and all the suicides, etc. If anything I'd say these industries just make it more important for men to hide anything that may be perceived as a sign of weakness that will be preyed upon by predatory types of men who seek to inflate their ego at the expense of others. Any time you mention the word 'should', what you are ultimately doing is making a judgement and the problem with that approach is we never have enough information/knowledge to come to the correct understanding 100% of the time.

As Confucius says.. "Good advice grates on the ear.."
Thank you for your words of wisdom.
Alas, not all of us have polished edges.
Be safe and stay sharp!

[Doc Dan]

People buy those gas station knives because 1] they look cool and or tough 2] because of price, price, price 3] because they don't know any better.

It is perhaps better to see if you can interest them in your hobby without ever disparaging their knife choice. If you have some inexpensive, but good knives, you might get them to bite. No harm in also showing them a really good knife.

"Oh, you like knives? Let me show you some of mine, too!"

[Bill1170]

The knives I sharpen for my friends are mostly kitchen knives. I’ll throw a quick coarse edge on a junk knife and explain that it’s junk to be used for dirty jobs only. On better knives I’ll go up through 1200 grit. I will suggest better tools if they’re receptive. Sometimes I gift a blade, typically a Victorinox Fibrox.

[Scandi Grind]

A friend is someone who's going to tell you when you have a booger hanging from your nose.. instead of not saying anything because they didn't want to embarrass you. I work in a rough industry with grown men who should be able to take a little constructive criticism.
But in today's world of political correctness, everything is offensive. So we walk on eggshells to avoid a talk with HR.

Ha ha, this is why I don't have many friends! And when I talk about having a friend, I mean a real friend. If they can't handle some simple honesty and go running, I won't miss them because they are not the kind of friend I need. I need reliable friends, friends that stick through thick and thin, and yeah there's not many of those to be had. I'm OK with that, to me it is better than having a bunch of poor friends.

I'm also sorry to inform you that while I can agree with you on the fact that true friends tell people what they need to hear... it's again not likely to go over well in reality because I'd wager most people's view of 'friends' has more to do with what someone can give them (even if it's intangible/unconscious) that fills a desire/want that they have or pads their ego in some way to help them feel superior. True friends indeed are willing to lose a friendship in order to speak the truth that needs to be communicated... but again in today's world you're more likely to make enemies treating others like a true friend.

Like I said, very few friends...

[ZrowsN1s]

I have a few Dragonfly Salts and Enduras I keep on hand as gifts for new friends with bad knives, or old friends who decide they want a knife.

My close friends get knives with edges I've reprofiled and mirror polished. A sharp knife can be a revelation to someone that's never owned one.

[toomanyquestions]

This has to be one of the funniest & yet serious questions I have seen on the forum in a good while. Quite a conundrum.

[toomanyquestions]

My intuition tells me that a person who is already open to- and has even committed to the idea of carrying a crap knife is a much better prospect to become a fellow knife enthusiast than somebody who isn't open to the idea at all.....There is some degree of nerd in every male, with patience you'll be able to lure it out.

Echoing others: just slyly & carefully note that each knife is an individual entity, and you have done the best you could on the knife in question.

[electro-static]

First of all, despite your best intentions, telling someone they NEED to do something is not a very effective approach in general. Allowing them to see the limitations of their current knife would be a better approach. Then discuss those pain points with them and offer a solution (another knife) that address the problems they've identified in concrete ways.

That said, assuming their knives are functionally safe to operate, I would simply take their knives and as they have asked... 'work your magic'. In my view, this means take whatever edge angle is on the blade from the factory and cut it in half angle-wise and use a very coarse finish at the apex. This alone will almost certainly performance higher than many factory knives.

It seems silly if you've never done the experiments to prove it out to yourself but an extreme low class steel/heat treat can easily outperform an expensive PM steel with careful heat treat by simply lower both the angle and finish on the apex for the cheap knife. This has always been the case and no amount of advances in steel/heat treat will matter more than geometry.

Don't believe me, try it on their knives and simply compare for yourself over as many controlled cutting runs as possible.

Please allow me to reiterate.
I've never mocked or belittled any of my associates for their choices. And I'm not denying the fact that a proper edge can vastly improve the performance of a blade. ****, the handle of a toothbrush can get a wicked edge with the proper heat treat and grind.
( don't ask me how I know ).
But the fact of the matter is that in my industry you need to have Reliable Tools. And if we can spend $200 on a flashlight, $300 on a pair of boots, or $1,200 on a new iphone. There's no reason why you should be out here carrying a $20 junk knife that is going to fail on you the first time you have cut through zip ties or a steel belted radial tire that some tweeked out transient placed on the tracks in order to stop my train so he can rob it.
A friend is someone who's going to tell you when you have a booger hanging from your nose.. instead of not saying anything because they didn't want to embarrass you. I work in a rough industry with grown men who should be able to take a little constructive criticism.
But in today's world of political correctness, everything is offensive. So we walk on eggshells to avoid a talk with HR.

I’ve been in the same situation, Honestly I just do my best with the crappy knife, and give them one of my cheapest beaters (That I can sharpen well) with a “hey I finished with you knife and thought you might like to try this one as well” or something like thst that invites them to use the new knife. Even something in 8Cr13Mov works well, actually it might be a preferred steel for these situations.

I live with a contractor that used one of those crappy knives, I did my best with it and gave him a byrd Cara-Cara 2. He loves the byrd knife now and uses it all the time it holds up well even to tasks like digging through dirt and I can put a new edge on it in 5 mins.

I’d look into sub $20 budget knives as gift knives to save you from the future pain of sharpening gummy garbage steel. There are many well liked budget brands in the knife community that make decent folders below $20 if you don’t want to spring for a byrd (I think they are around $40 ish now).

[jabba359]

This has never happened to me because I've lived in LA for almost 40 years, and almost nobody I know carries a pocket knife. The exceptions are people like me who work in the film industry in a tech role (camera, or other production jobs) and they are all carrying good knives. Mostly Spyderco & BM.

Good to see another LA filmmaker. I've been here 14 years (generally in camera dept.) and I see lots of fellow production people with Spyderco and BM in their pockets. In fact, the gaffer I've been using lately was just showing me his new Crucarta PM3 last week. I've occasionally given away some Spydercos to friends that need a knife upgrade. I always grab giveaway spares for exactly this reason whenever I make it out to the factory seconds sale.

[CDEP]

This has never happened to me because I've lived in LA for almost 40 years, and almost nobody I know carries a pocket knife. The exceptions are people like me who work in the film industry in a tech role (camera, or other production jobs) and they are all carrying good knives. Mostly Spyderco & BM.

Good to see another LA filmmaker. I've been here 14 years (generally in camera dept.) and I see lots of fellow production people with Spyderco and BM in their pockets. In fact, the gaffer I've been using lately was just showing me his new Crucarta PM3 last week. I've occasionally given away some Spydercos to friends that need a knife upgrade. I always grab giveaway spares for exactly this reason whenever I make it out to the factory seconds sale.

A cinematographer friend showed me his BM Mini Grip that he carries on set (great knife, I love mine) but had never held or used a Spyderco. I gave him a Native 5 MagnaCut Salt PE for his next birthday and he's been born again.

I guess if you're in film production you don't encounter many trash knives. These people know the value of a good tool.

Seems like everyone else I know in LA is running around knife-less.

[James Y]

I live in San Diego, and although most people don’t carry a knife (that I could see clipped, anyway), every once in a while I spot a pocket clipped knife in some guy’s pocket while shopping, or just walking around, etc. Sometimes I can tell the make of the knife. I’ve spotted a few Spydercos, a couple Benchmades, some Kershaws, a couple Milwaukee brand knives, and others I couldn’t tell which brand, or if they were some no-name brand knives. I once saw a homeless guy trying to stab a Gerber knockoff of a CRKT M16 into a palm tree. I think I even spotted an Emerson CQC7 clipped to someone’s pocket once.

To be fair, some people might carry SAKs or “traditional” pocketknives in-pocket, or even a Spyderco knife down in their pocket unclipped, and you would never know they’re carrying a knife.

Jim

[Archimedes]

Crappy knife. Crappy life. That's what I tell my wife.

[RustyIron]

Crappy knife. Crappy life. That's what I tell my wife.

Dude? Are you a poet or something?
Try and match this, dawg!

A blade that gleams, a touch so true,
Cuts clean and deep, yet steady too.
My wife, a soul of warmth and light,
Her love as sharp, yet ever bright.

With knife and wife, life's table's set,
We carve our days, with no regret.
A simple feast, a love that's deep,
This life, this wife, this blade, I keep.

[MacLaren]

I respect myself and my craftsmanship to the point that I have no problem declining to squander my time on silly projects. Life is short, and there are other activities where my efforts are more urgently needed.

+1

[standy99]

Being a ex-butcher I get asked a lot to sharpen knives. (And I do sharpen a lot of knives)

I get the new person and they bring their bag of knives from the kitchen or whatever and are hoping for a trip home with all knives sharpened.

I go through the knives and pick what’s worth my time and what’s not. Usually it’s a few knives out of 10.

Then I get the why not these ??? Politely I advise them they are lesser quality and they will ruin my expensive sharpening stones.

Chat to them about a quality knife and advise them of what’s out there in their budget. So many times I have put someone on to a decent knife and have been thanked and praised for showing them the light.

Show them the light is my advice.

On another note I make knives and every now and then I get asked what I can make for under $100….i usually send them a link to a $60 Walmart knife or say “a handle”

[James Y]

Being a ex-butcher I get asked a lot to sharpen knives. (And I do sharpen a lot of knives)

I get the new person and they bring their bag of knives from the kitchen or whatever and are hoping for a trip home with all knives sharpened.

I go through the knives and pick what’s worth my time and what’s not. Usually it’s a few knives out of 10.

Then I get the why not these ??? Politely I advise them they are lesser quality and they will ruin my expensive sharpening stones.

Chat to them about a quality knife and advise them of what’s out there in their budget. So many times I have put someone on to a decent knife and have been thanked and praised for showing them the light.

Show them the light is my advice.

On another note I make knives and every now and then I get asked what I can make for under $100….i usually send them a link to a $60 Walmart knife or say “a handle”

That's a very good way to do it.

TBH, a person doesn't need to spend a lot to get a quality kitchen knife. I use only Victorinox kitchen knives, and they are very easy to maintain. I only own 5 different ones, and all together, they cost me under $100 US. Probably well under. I've had them for many years, but last I checked out of curiosity, the prices on these same knives hadn't risen much, if at all. The most expensive was my 7" santoku, which cost me about $40.

Jim