Trash etiquette

[Ocho]

First of all, Happy Father's Day to all the sires.. I wish you all peace and prosperity!
I'm posting this thread because I need some advice.
I am constantly being approached by friends and Associates who want me to service their blades. Apparently I'm the resident Knife Guy. The problem is, what some of these people are carrying is trash! Now, I am of the opinion that even a trash knife is better than no knife. But they hand me these 20 dollar gas station knock offs with such reverence.. (cuz not only does it have a glass breaker, but it has a seatbelt cutter too!)
When I inform them that a blade IS a seatbelt cutter, they they say "Yeah, but mine has a bottle opener too!"
I acquiesce, and ask "Ok, what is it that you want me to do?"
Well it's dull.. and the pocket clip is loose, and it's hard to open"
At this point every neuron in my brain is screaming "That's because this is a $20 gas station knock off piece of TRASH!"
Case in point.. the Smith and Wesson "Border Gaurd"

8 ounces of worthless metal that I'm supposed to "work magic" on cuz they heard I customize blades.
So my question to you, my brethren is, how do you handle it?
Do you tell them it's trash and that they need to Buck up and spend a little dough and get a quality blade?
Please respond and let me know I'm not the only one dealing with this issue.
I appreciate this forum for giving us the myriad avenues to share and express our opinions.. As well as a safe place to reach out for advice.
Sincerely,
Alone and away from home on Fathers day..
OCHO

[SchoonerBum]

I just do my best with the knife, and if they are someone I like I gift them a Spyderco and let them form their own opinions.

[JSumm]

First off "sires" had me laughing. Mainly the male breeder use.

Second, sorry your away from home and alone on Father's Day. Happy Father's Day!

Third I've always explained I will do the best I can and leave it at that. Tell them there is only so much you can do. Bore them with some steel talk and nerd out a bit.

This happens to me from time to time. Clean it up, oil it, sharpen it to the best kitchen butter knife you can get and apologize when you hand it back for the decision they made.

[aicolainen]

Happy father's day ocho and all other sires in the Shire.

I get your frustration, but try to zoom out and see the big picture.
I would appreciate to be in your situation (I think.. ). And the reason is simple; hardly anyone I know carries a knife or has (to my knowledge) the slightest interest in doing so.
My intuition tells me that a person who is already open to- and has even committed to the idea of carrying a crap knife is a much better prospect to become a fellow knife enthusiast than somebody who isn't open to the idea at all.

Now that we, contrary to your own assessment, have established you're actually in a preferred situation - you need to use it to your advantage. As Jeff and Schooner bum alluded to, you're probably better off not telling to their faces they've bought a crap knife. Even if they already know it or suspect it, nobody likes being wrong.
Easy into it, sneak in some nerdy details and let them try/borrow a proper knife to pique their interest. There is some degree of nerd in every male, with patience you'll be able to lure it out.

[Manixguy@1994]

I would just follow shiny foot prints . Everyone starts somewhere with knives , no harm or foul . MG2

[JD Spydo]

I totally hear where you're coming from. I wish I had a $5 bill for every guy I know and work with that wants me to sharpen his bargain basement, flea market trash folding knife. Almost every one of the knives I'm presented with have what I affectionately call "Chewing Gum Stainless" blades. Reason being is that super cheap stainless is like working with chewing gum.

It's really a rare occasion when someone approaches me with a somewhat high quality or even a middle of the road quality knife. It blows me away that so many guys who are normally pretty wise about most of their other purchases but when it comes to knives many of them are "dumber than a brick". And it also behooves me when they tell me how good their flea market, knock off blades perform. And they can't figure why they constantly need to sharpen them .

I'll end it this way. P. T. Barnum was right

[RustyIron]

I respect myself and my craftsmanship to the point that I have no problem declining to squander my time on silly projects. Life is short, and there are other activities where my efforts are more urgently needed.

[James Y]

Years ago, I sharpened a cheap bali-song knife for a friend. The steel was some kind of thick, soft, "chromey" metal, and it was like trying to sharpen a bar of soap.

That said, I gave it back to him and he seemed happy enough. Said he took it camping with him.

I avoided telling him about the quality of his knife, or lack thereof. Because it was HIS knife. Nobody likes being proselytized to, about their knives, or anything else. I know I sure don't. Let people enjoy what they have. If they end up learning more about knives later and ask you what you like, then you can tell them about what YOU like and why you like it/them.

Jim

[iacchus]

If its absolutely trash, I just run it over the coarse stone a bit to give it a really toothy edge and hand it back. Some of the ones I've seen are never going to take a proper edge, and their owners apparently have never experienced one.

I always just add that its the best I can do, but if they want something that will hold a better edge for longer, I have plenty of recco's for them across a range of budgets.

Seems to work well enough.

[Halfneck]

Dealt with the same issues a few times while in the Army. They'd hand me some cheap & beat to **** knife and expect me to work a miracle. I'd put a good edge on it and hand it back with the advice to go by the on base store and upgrade to a Spyderco, Cold Steel, or Gerber. This was the mid 90s, so Spyderco Delicas/Enduras, Cold Steel Voyagers, and Gerber Applegate folders were around $60+. Sometimes the knives were so beat up there was no saving them. One kid in my squad had a gas station Delica knock-off with a plastic thumb stud that the lock would fail. I ended up giving him my Delica, I hope he took care of it & it served him well.

That's about the best you can do. I'd say about a 1/4 to a 1/3 of the soldiers I told to get a better knife actually did.

[Ocho]

Wow, I am blown away by all the support brothers! I was in a bit of a dark place being away from the family on Father's day. But when Duty calls.. you answer the phone. That's what dads do.
Each one of you have valid points.. and just to be clear.
I never take a condescending tone or try and make anyone feel small for their choices. Like I said, a trash knife is better than no knife at all. Most people don't understand the level of commitment we have to our "Hobby".
another knife? Don't you already have one of those?
My wife once surprised me with a gift. A Box-O-knives from home Shopping Network.
(But wait there's more!)
And there was.. so..SO much more... I was giving away cheap Frost Cutlery knives for the next 3 years! Pizza guy would show up.. "Thanks! Ain't got cash on me right now for a tip brother but here, take this knife.."
But her intentions were good and I accepted it graciously.
Every once in awhile one will pop up in the back of the drawer or in some box in storage where I stashed it. I swear it's like stripper glitter, you never get rid of it all.
anyways, I rambled on way too long. That's what happens when you're stuck in a hotel room waiting for that call to take you back home. Thanks for all the support. I hope you all have a wonderful day and please. Stay Sharp!

[ZrowsN1s]

I've had this experience with that knife brand. I joke to people, best guns worst knives. I can make the knife function and cut better than when they gave it to me, so I do, but ya not a miracle worker.

As others have said, maybe gently suggest a better knife, explain why it's worth spending money on a quality blade. Or if you're able and so inclined, buy them a reasonably priced knife.

Just remember there needs to be a little edge-u-cation first. People who are used to K.S.O.'s (knife shaped objects) tend to use them as scapers, pokers, screwdrivers, and prybars more than as cutting tools. Because their knives are too dull to be a good cutting tool. Be sure to help them understand the difference and make sure what they really want is a high performance CUTTING tool. And explain to them reasonable use vs abuse of an edge. Nothing more painful than watch someone bang a 10dps polished edge onto a marble counter top, or pulling a copper staple with it.

Using a good edge is a lot like shooting, know your target and whats behind it.

[Ocho]

I've had this experience with that knife brand. I joke to people, best guns worst knives. I can make the knife function and cut better than when they gave it to me, so I do, but ya not a miracle worker.

As others have said, maybe gently suggest a better knife, explain why it's worth spending money on a quality blade. Or if you're able and so inclined, buy them a reasonably priced knife.

Just remember there needs to be a little edge-u-cation first. People who are used to K.S.O.'s (knife shaped objects) tend to use them as scapers, pokers, screwdrivers, and prybars more than as cutting tools. Because their knives are too dull to be a good cutting tool. Be sure to help them understand the difference and make sure what they really want is a high performance CUTTING tool. And explain to them reasonable use vs abuse of an edge. Nothing more painful than watch someone bang a 10dps polished edge onto a marble counter top, or pulling a copper staple with it.

Using a good edge is a lot like shooting, know your target and whats behind it.

Preaching to the choir brother!
I practice A.B.C. ( always be carrying) so I have no problem showing them multiple examples of what a quality blade is or should be. On average I have at least 8 blades with me on every trip.. (Hence the name OCHO)
I'm usually stuck with a guy for anywhere from 12 to 16 hours depending on the job. And being that the conversation eventually turns to knives, and in the interest of Killing Time on a long trip, I have an opportunity let them handle multiple blades and explain the benefits and intended use of each one.
But once the subject of cost comes up, it's like
"WHA?!, you paid how much for that?! That's CRAZY! I can get 10 of these for that price! As they answer a text on their $1,200 iPhone..

[CDEP]

This has never happened to me because I've lived in LA for almost 40 years, and almost nobody I know carries a pocket knife. The exceptions are people like me who work in the film industry in a tech role (camera, or other production jobs) and they are all carrying good knives. Mostly Spyderco & BM.

What I have done a lot is recommend the Sharpmaker to those who don't really pay much attention to maintenence.

If a friend did approach me with a trash knife that needed attention I'd do my best, and then gift them with either an Alcyone or a Delica, depending on the blade they were used to.

Once they have a Spydie in hand it would not be necessary to point out the shortcomings of their old knife.

When I've gifted a knife to friends who already carry, but haven't tried Spyderco, it is always a Native 5. The last couple were N5 Salt MagnCut PE, and reports back have all been that it is now their favorite knife.

[Steeltoez83]

If it was a gift from someone special, I'd lean towards keeping it a junk drawer so it can't be lost at work or somewhere else. Emotional attachment is not something I prefer to interfere with. If I can give em a knife as a loaner for a bit I will. That way they see themselves first hand better edge retention, better ergos, less weight, etc. I have more exposure to the knife hobby than them, so It's an opportunity for me to shepherd them. My go to rental is usually a rat 1 or a byrd harrier 2.

[wrdwrght]

If you carry, never tell.

If you sharpen, never tell even your wife, unless you really love her, and she swears never to tell anyone.

[Stuart Ackerman]

I have sharpened too many gas station blades.
I normally tell them it is NOW sharp for maybe a few cuts, and if they are happy with the knife...cool!

AND, when they want to step up to real world knives, speak to me, and I will teach them about Spyderco.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

First of all, despite your best intentions, telling someone they NEED to do something is not a very effective approach in general. Allowing them to see the limitations of their current knife would be a better approach. Then discuss those pain points with them and offer a solution (another knife) that address the problems they've identified in concrete ways.

That said, assuming their knives are functionally safe to operate, I would simply take their knives and as they have asked... 'work your magic'. In my view, this means take whatever edge angle is on the blade from the factory and cut it in half angle-wise and use a very coarse finish at the apex. This alone will almost certainly performance higher than many factory knives.

It seems silly if you've never done the experiments to prove it out to yourself but an extreme low class steel/heat treat can easily outperform an expensive PM steel with careful heat treat by simply lower both the angle and finish on the apex for the cheap knife. This has always been the case and no amount of advances in steel/heat treat will matter more than geometry.

Don't believe me, try it on their knives and simply compare for yourself over as many controlled cutting runs as possible.

[Scandi Grind]

I don't know enough people for this to happen with anybody other than my immediate family, so that simplifies my situation. They know their tools aren't up to my personal standard, but they also know that they are going to beat on them and that they don't need super keen edges for the tasks that their knives will get used for. However, they still ask me to sharpen them once in awhile because it gets pretty hard to cut things at some point. My solution is just a coarse 220 diamond plate. I would love to thin it for them too, but that is time consuming, and the bevels are usually quite wide already even at about 20 dps. So I just match the edge angle, get a nicely apexed 220 grit finish, and hand it back to them. Maybe 6 months later they come back for another resharpening.

If I had more people coming to me, I would probably refuse to do the work more often, and single out the people I think would be open to understanding knives better, do their knife for them to get them started, then try to introduce them to the broader realm of knives, edges, and sharpening if they are willing to get into it. Otherwise, yeah, I would just do it occasionally, and just say no if I don't feel it's worth my time at the moment. Or charge a few bucks for it if that wouldn't hurt their feelings.

[Ocho]

First of all, despite your best intentions, telling someone they NEED to do something is not a very effective approach in general. Allowing them to see the limitations of their current knife would be a better approach. Then discuss those pain points with them and offer a solution (another knife) that address the problems they've identified in concrete ways.

That said, assuming their knives are functionally safe to operate, I would simply take their knives and as they have asked... 'work your magic'. In my view, this means take whatever edge angle is on the blade from the factory and cut it in half angle-wise and use a very coarse finish at the apex. This alone will almost certainly performance higher than many factory knives.

It seems silly if you've never done the experiments to prove it out to yourself but an extreme low class steel/heat treat can easily outperform an expensive PM steel with careful heat treat by simply lower both the angle and finish on the apex for the cheap knife. This has always been the case and no amount of advances in steel/heat treat will matter more than geometry.

Don't believe me, try it on their knives and simply compare for yourself over as many controlled cutting runs as possible.

Please allow me to reiterate.
I've never mocked or belittled any of my associates for their choices. And I'm not denying the fact that a proper edge can vastly improve the performance of a blade. ****, the handle of a toothbrush can get a wicked edge with the proper heat treat and grind.
( don't ask me how I know ).
But the fact of the matter is that in my industry you need to have Reliable Tools. And if we can spend $200 on a flashlight, $300 on a pair of boots, or $1,200 on a new iphone. There's no reason why you should be out here carrying a $20 junk knife that is going to fail on you the first time you have cut through zip ties or a steel belted radial tire that some tweeked out transient placed on the tracks in order to stop my train so he can rob it.
A friend is someone who's going to tell you when you have a booger hanging from your nose.. instead of not saying anything because they didn't want to embarrass you. I work in a rough industry with grown men who should be able to take a little constructive criticism.
But in today's world of political correctness, everything is offensive. So we walk on eggshells to avoid a talk with HR.