A new spin on "HIC dropping soon"

[Tucson Tom]

Well, I was almost expecting this. I have had the HIC mule (alongside 2 other mules) on my desk.
Sort of "sheathed" between books in an on shelf bookshelf.

I've been using Mr. HIC to open mail and packages and for other light duty.

Well just now, while opening mail I bumped it off the desk onto the floor with a clank. A good sized sliver broke off the blade (including the tip of course). And part of the tip vanished, probably in another smaller fragment.

So, it is impossible to say that the HIC was not a disappointment. Even before breaking it, it was only sharp in sort of a vague mediocre way. It was sharp enough for light duty, and I had hopes of fooling around with some diamond plates to improve the edge -- but I'll probably just put it back in the box and get it out and cry over it every once in a blue moon. Yes there is still enough edge for it to be a usable knife of sorts, but it is time to cut my losses and move on.

To turn this into sort of a controlled experiment (rather than simply whining), I just knocked one of the other mules (a PMA11) onto the cement floor from the same tabletop six times with effectively no damage -- actually the point did suffer in one drop, but not anything I cannot sharpen out and not be upset about.

All I can say is -- definitely do not make knives from this material (HIC)

[yablanowitz]

Just out of curiousity, did it rust as well? Just asking, because there seems to be a large (or at least vocal) contingent around here that value rust resistence above all else, including the toughness to withstand a 3' drop onto concrete.

I was able to achieve a useable edge on one with nothing more than DMT Diafolds and patience, but it was never what I would call sharp. When I see mechanical jigs, power tools, diamond paste and 100X+ magnification figuring prominately in the sharpening discussion, I figure it is not a material for me, either. But I know there are people here who love that stuff, so why not make knives for them?

[Mage7]

To turn this into sort of a controlled experiment (rather than simply whining), I just knocked one of the other mules (a PMA11) onto the cement floor from the same tabletop six times with effectively no damage -- actually the point did suffer in one drop, but not anything I cannot sharpen out and not be upset about.

I appreciate your bravery, sir. Not that PMA11 is a particularly brittle steel, but they hardened them pretty good, and seeing as you'd already incurred one lost Mule, that took some large spherical masses.

Just out of curiousity, did it rust as well? Just asking, because there seems to be a large (or at least vocal) contingent around here that value rust resistence above all else, including the toughness to withstand a 3' drop onto concrete.

I was able to achieve a useable edge on one with nothing more than DMT Diafolds and patience, but it was never what I would call sharp. When I see mechanical jigs, power tools, diamond paste and 100X+ magnification figuring prominately in the sharpening discussion, I figure it is not a material for me, either. But I know there are people here who love that stuff, so why not make knives for them?

I keep seeing the idea of this being a dive knife, as if it's kind of a saving grace for how this material could be useful, but aren't steels like H1/H2, LCN200, and MagnaCut already sufficiently rust-proof and way tougher?

[yablanowitz]

I don't see many mentions of diving from the contingent that wants everything rustproof. Frankly, none of the rustproof steels have impressed me with their edge holding, but I live a long way from an ocean, so corrosion is way down the priority list for me. HIC may not sharpen easily, but it does hold what edge it takes quite well. At least until you drop it on a hard surface.

[TomAiello]

I have been using HIC kitchen knives for more than a year now. They hold a working edge _forever_. That's their main strength. You can't really get them 'scary sharp', and they are relatively fragile (we have broken two of the paring knives now), but they hold a useable edge for a virtually infinite time.

[sal]

Hi Tucson Tom.

Sorry for your disappointment. But as Yab said, there are likely other advantages. We made them to see what we all can learn. Gail and I played round with Ceramic knives as possible dive knife use 20+ years ago. We made a number of prototypes with a ceramic company in the US.

So far we've learned that the working edge goes for a very long time. They don't rust, They can break. They can be made to be very sharp.

Comparing to vehicles, as Jason mentioned; I have a company truck, Tundra V8, an Acura TLX - Type "S", a Honda S2000, and a Bobcat. "All good, just different" and none will do what the others will.

sal

[WilliamMunny]

On the good side you now don’t need to worry about hurting a $150 knife, already beat up. I say use the **** out of what’s left of it, push it hard and see where the limitations are. If you don’t I am sure someone else would want to without the fear of messing it up.

[Steeltoez83]

I think spyderco has already made up their minds about this material but I could be entirely wrong. I do plan on scoring 1 and providing whatever feedback I can provide. I get the benefit of getting a 2nd chance of picking 1 up. First time I've ever seen that on a mule team. If the right appreciation is given in this situation, the concept of re running mule teams has a chance at discussion. Plus providing feedback strengthens the chances of getting other mule team projects down the road.

[Steveng]

I think spyderco has already made up their minds about this material but I could be entirely wrong. I do plan on scoring 1 and providing whatever feedback I can provide. I get the benefit of getting a 2nd chance of picking 1 up. First time I've ever seen that on a mule team. If the right appreciation is given in this situation, the concept of re running mule teams has a chance at discussion. Plus providing feedback strengthens the chances of getting other mule team projects down the road.

What decision was made?

[Steeltoez83]

I think spyderco has already made up their minds about this material but I could be entirely wrong. I do plan on scoring 1 and providing whatever feedback I can provide. I get the benefit of getting a 2nd chance of picking 1 up. First time I've ever seen that on a mule team. If the right appreciation is given in this situation, the concept of re running mule teams has a chance at discussion. Plus providing feedback strengthens the chances of getting other mule team projects down the road.

What decision was made?

I'm guessing sink or swim but that's just a guess.

[sal]

All this chatter about what Spyderco might do or not do is just speculation. We made the Mule as a Mule. We re getting ready to release the rest of them. After that, we have no idea what we might do with the material. A lot depends on your opinions and tests.

As far as our production goes, we're trying hard to keep up with what we're already making.

If you want one, I suggest you grab it while it's available. As with most Mules, it's probably a one time shot. There is nothing like it on the market.

sal

[Steeltoez83]

I remember having private discussions with Roman aka kknivesswitzerland when he was finally allowed to mention about it years ago. We never discussed the research team that was assembled to get to this material made. We talked about future applications of where this material would excel long before any knives were even made. I am on his books for a piece of nitrobe 77 but that's irrelevant. I like to think I'm fashionably late to this party. Better late than never.

[Tucson Tom]

I've been hiding in my cave since first posting. I'm over the disgruntlement of having dropped and broken this blade. And I thought I would ramble on here and share some thoughts.

A dive knife? I would think not. I would want something really tough and bulletproof. At this point I think maybe Magnacut would be the thing. A fixed blade for sure. So if you have a Magnacut mule, there is your dive knife!

Was an HIC mule a mistake? Absolutely not. This is exactly what the mule team project is about. I am proud of Spyderco that they pushed the envelope this far in this direction.

What will happen with my busted blade? Well if I had powered diamond tooling, I would reshape the tip. It would take forever by hand. I am still scheming on this. Once I had the tip reshaped, I would be interested in experimenting with sharpening the edge. I expect the truth to be that this won't take a super sharp grabby edge, but as has been said, the edge it does take will endure forever.

Where did I go wrong? Well the blade is so light that I didn't notice that it was between some sheets of paper that I pulled off my desk. That would have been less likely if I had a handle on it (gotta get busy with that 3D printer). Of course if it had been a steel blade, I probably would have noticed the weight and/or it wouldn't have been a big deal if it fell on the concrete floor.

Yes I have several mules on my desk without handles that I use regularly. Currently the PMA11 and the PD1 -- two of my favorites.

[sal]

Hi Jason,

Do you intentionally try to be offensive? Or are you one of those that honestly can't help it?

I don't know what people you think we are losing? Our Opfocus program is a favor we do for those Patriotic Americans serving the rest of us.

The Mule Team project is a favor we do for those knife afi's interested various blade materials. We don't think of our blade materials, which are mostly asked for as; "absolute garbage".

Our business is selling knives to people that like to purchase our knives, though we don't think of them as "idiots".

I guess your knowledge of business far exceeds mine and I should be more appreciative of your business model suggestions?

So now you can honestly say that we are in disagreement.

sal

[Tucson Tom]

Well, I'm not a veteran, but I think a 40 percent discount is still a heck of a nice nod to those who served.

And of course Spyderco doesn't need to do it at all.

But nobody likes changes. There are places I used to drive to and camp whenever I wanted to that are now "fee areas" in the National Forest. A different jar of pickles I suppose, but I don't like the change. Nonetheless I am thankful that we do have public lands, fee or not (and I just find other spots to go camp). I am thankful for the mule program. If I was eligible, I would be thankful for a 40 percent off via the Opfocus program.

[CasperFatone]

What will happen with my busted blade? Well if I had powered diamond tooling, I would reshape the tip. It would take forever by hand. I am still scheming on this. Once I had the tip reshaped, I would be interested in experimenting with sharpening the edge. I expect the truth to be that this won't take a super sharp grabby edge, but as has been said, the edge it does take will endure forever.

If you want to send it to me I will grind it to a more usable shape for you as well as throw a fresh edge on it. I wouldn’t ask you to pay me anything, unless you care to cover the cost of return shipping. Really this would be a research thing for me since I am still planning to make a folder out of my HIC Mule, and it’s a good opportunity for me to practice shaping the material before cutting into my knife.

You can search for my folding Mules if you want to see some of my work and make sure I’m not a total hack. As a hobby I make and mod knives, part of which is doing chop jobs so reshaping a blade is nothing new to me. Regarding this HIC material, I’ve already had good success sharpening mine with silicon carbide belts and have been able to drill a clean pivot hole in the tang using diamond bits. If you feel like sending it my way for some TLC shoot me a PM.

[Steveng]

Hi Jason,

Do you intentionally try to be offensive? Or are you one of those that honestly can't help it?

I don't know what people you think we are losing? Our Opfocus program is a favor we do for those Patriotic Americans serving the rest of us.

The Mule Team project is a favor we do for those knife afi's interested various blade materials. We don't think of our blade materials, which are mostly asked for as; "absolute garbage".

Our business is selling knives to people that like to purchase our knives, though we don't think of them as "idiots".

I guess your knowledge of business far exceeds mine and I should be more appreciative of your business model suggestions?

So now you can honestly say that we are in disagreement.

sal

Mm I'm not sure about disagreement perhaps misunderstanding. I was defending your position until your company that you still have a very high seat at caved like everyone else and thus lost my respect. It's respect Sal. Nothing more nothing less. Civilians don't really ever understand this I should add. If I'm going to offer that as a company - I'd NEVER think about changing it. Veterans, and I explicitly exclude myself there, are why you have this business and live in America. Period. We both agree on that one. Again I'm just stating facts.

Yeah, honestly if I owned your company I'd make changes. I'm going to lose money and have to let people go, but I don't care I still have my dignity left. Just because the world changes doesn't mean that you have to. It does make it easier to. You're talking to someone who truly doesn't care about money. I'm aware of the insanity of that but it's just reality. So, obviously I'm going to make different decisions henceforth why I have a very small company comparatively that attracts a select type of person who I don't have to do the marketing stuff towards. If you think this is offensive, that's your thinking and you're entitled to it. To me it's just simply two men having a conversation and I have defended your company more than I typically would because of my respect for you. It's not your company anymore, and I know enough to know what is marketing and a real issue, and I'm going to call the black kettle a black kettle. It's not the red one..

What I type isn't necessarily just my opinion it's my opinion of other people's opinions and psychology and sociology. Things that I started at age 13. This entire Mule thing is a business plan so yes I have to include some of the reality to people who are reading my text. That's why I came here. To explain the science and the marketing differences. You know I'm the former so I honestly don't know why you would take offense to.. anything I said honestly but especially that. If I said something scientifically incorrect I asked for corrections*.

Jas

Marketing and business advice from a person that doesn't care about money. Complaining about a program you cannot even participate it. Who exactly do you think is benefiting from your "information"? I am grateful for the Opfocus program though have used it only once. It is more than I get from 98% of the other companies out there. But since you don't care about money, perhaps I can just send my orders to you and get my stuff gratis. Sounds great to me...

[ykspydiefan]

Hello Jason,

In a way I am sorry I never took the time to welcome you to the forum. However, you do come on like a ton of bricks...

I hope to help you to be aware of the mistake you have recently made. The Mule Team is very welcoming, in many ways. It does not welcome you to critique business practice or marketing strategy/effectiveness. I have read and re-read the Mule Team marketing information and it most certainly does not invite anyone to do so.

Initially, I was hopeful as you talked a lot of game about science and research. The Mule Team wants you to test record and provide feed back on what you are doing with your Mules. I have read that you own fancy machines and have money to spare so... Where are your numbers?

Along the way of the Mule Team, I personally have lost my marbles over program, I was corrected, took that correction in a reasonable fashion and still participate on the forum today. I have come to find that the Mule Team is not the appropriate place to broadcast personal issues. Yes, many forumites have formed deep and lasting personal relationships and have been known to share personal info. Share, not broadcast or use as an explanation for brashness.

You completely lost me when you were trying to sell steel here, mistake or not. I mostly stopped reading your posts when it became apparent that you were typing stream of conscious stuff, not proof reading and hitting send. I feel you would benefit from having a second person read your stuff before you hit send.

I am typing this for you as you still can participate in a meaning full way. It would help if you stayed in the scope of the program, stayed on topic, and share as it relates to Spyderco knives. There is an "Off Topic" section, you may be surprised what people share there. There is even a "New Gun" topic. Be free and start your own off topic.

So far as I can tell, people here "forumites" want other people to participate and engage. No one wants to call you out or put you down or anything of the sort. You have invited people to do so in many of your posts, and I understand that type of behaviour occurs on other forums. No one wants that here.(He says in the most sweeping of generalizations.) I want a forum that shares, includes, disagrees, changes and the respect part comes along as we prove how we handle ourselves over time. The, over time part is important as it leave room for change.

Sincerely, I hope this helps you in some way. I know it was hard for me to change the way I share via internet to fit into the forum, it was worth it.

[sal]

Hey Jason,

There are a lot of really interesting folks here. Most have their own "weird" and their own "baggage". Me included.

We've all agreed to be respectful, honest, fair and proper. Most are pretty humble, despite their exceptional abilities. You might just find a "home" here as many have.

You are probably smarter than many here, and you know a great deal. I believe that you could bring an interesting perspective to our discussions. Take a deep breath. Relax. We're friends here.

sal
_____________________________________________________________________________

"The future of humankind will be found in cooperation"....Edward Deming. He gave examples of "Time zones" and "Telephones" as evidence.

[Tucson Tom]

What will happen with my busted blade? Well if I had powered diamond tooling, I would reshape the tip. It would take forever by hand. I am still scheming on this. Once I had the tip reshaped, I would be interested in experimenting with sharpening the edge. I expect the truth to be that this won't take a super sharp grabby edge, but as has been said, the edge it does take will endure forever.

If you want to send it to me I will grind it to a more usable shape for you as well as throw a fresh edge on it. I wouldn’t ask you to pay me anything, unless you care to cover the cost of return shipping. Really this would be a research thing for me since I am still planning to make a folder out of my HIC Mule, and it’s a good opportunity for me to practice shaping the material before cutting into my knife.

You can search for my folding Mules if you want to see some of my work and make sure I’m not a total hack. As a hobby I make and mod knives, part of which is doing chop jobs so reshaping a blade is nothing new to me. Regarding this HIC material, I’ve already had good success sharpening mine with silicon carbide belts and have been able to drill a clean pivot hole in the tang using diamond bits. If you feel like sending it my way for some TLC shoot me a PM.

That is quite an offer. You make me wonder about using a little belt sander I have with the finest SiC belt I can find. Maybe with patience and a light touch I would be surprised and wouldn't need diamond after all.