A new spin on "HIC dropping soon"

[Tucson Tom]

Well, I was almost expecting this. I have had the HIC mule (alongside 2 other mules) on my desk.
Sort of "sheathed" between books in an on shelf bookshelf.

I've been using Mr. HIC to open mail and packages and for other light duty.

Well just now, while opening mail I bumped it off the desk onto the floor with a clank. A good sized sliver broke off the blade (including the tip of course). And part of the tip vanished, probably in another smaller fragment.

So, it is impossible to say that the HIC was not a disappointment. Even before breaking it, it was only sharp in sort of a vague mediocre way. It was sharp enough for light duty, and I had hopes of fooling around with some diamond plates to improve the edge -- but I'll probably just put it back in the box and get it out and cry over it every once in a blue moon. Yes there is still enough edge for it to be a usable knife of sorts, but it is time to cut my losses and move on.

To turn this into sort of a controlled experiment (rather than simply whining), I just knocked one of the other mules (a PMA11) onto the cement floor from the same tabletop six times with effectively no damage -- actually the point did suffer in one drop, but not anything I cannot sharpen out and not be upset about.

All I can say is -- definitely do not make knives from this material (HIC)

[yablanowitz]

Just out of curiousity, did it rust as well? Just asking, because there seems to be a large (or at least vocal) contingent around here that value rust resistence above all else, including the toughness to withstand a 3' drop onto concrete.

I was able to achieve a useable edge on one with nothing more than DMT Diafolds and patience, but it was never what I would call sharp. When I see mechanical jigs, power tools, diamond paste and 100X+ magnification figuring prominately in the sharpening discussion, I figure it is not a material for me, either. But I know there are people here who love that stuff, so why not make knives for them?

[kennbr34]

To turn this into sort of a controlled experiment (rather than simply whining), I just knocked one of the other mules (a PMA11) onto the cement floor from the same tabletop six times with effectively no damage -- actually the point did suffer in one drop, but not anything I cannot sharpen out and not be upset about.

I appreciate your bravery, sir. Not that PMA11 is a particularly brittle steel, but they hardened them pretty good, and seeing as you'd already incurred one lost Mule, that took some large spherical masses.

Just out of curiousity, did it rust as well? Just asking, because there seems to be a large (or at least vocal) contingent around here that value rust resistence above all else, including the toughness to withstand a 3' drop onto concrete.

I was able to achieve a useable edge on one with nothing more than DMT Diafolds and patience, but it was never what I would call sharp. When I see mechanical jigs, power tools, diamond paste and 100X+ magnification figuring prominately in the sharpening discussion, I figure it is not a material for me, either. But I know there are people here who love that stuff, so why not make knives for them?

I keep seeing the idea of this being a dive knife, as if it's kind of a saving grace for how this material could be useful, but aren't steels like H1/H2, LCN200, and MagnaCut already sufficiently rust-proof and way tougher?

[yablanowitz]

I don't see many mentions of diving from the contingent that wants everything rustproof. Frankly, none of the rustproof steels have impressed me with their edge holding, but I live a long way from an ocean, so corrosion is way down the priority list for me. HIC may not sharpen easily, but it does hold what edge it takes quite well. At least until you drop it on a hard surface.

[TomAiello]

I have been using HIC kitchen knives for more than a year now. They hold a working edge _forever_. That's their main strength. You can't really get them 'scary sharp', and they are relatively fragile (we have broken two of the paring knives now), but they hold a useable edge for a virtually infinite time.

[VeraX_Knives]

All I can say is -- definitely do not make knives from this material (HIC)

I can't say that I disagree with you here. My opinion on some other things may differ. But the penultimate.. opinion of mine is that.. I just honestly don't see any real world use of it catching on. Thus resulting in .. sales to people like me and whatnot but I could see the average person that carries a knife to.. have quite a few reasons not to use this. There's not a chef I know that will take this stuff over steel, and I happen to know a few. Probably less than sal does however lol.

However I have to also say that I did really appreciate working with such a material in such thick stock and if I had to look on the bright side about it, the group of people who will be turned off are the experienced guys like you, having a very pragmatic why fix what isn't broke mentality which is.. how I think honestly. Now the people who don't really know much about mat sci that are friends or mine from the military and the younger generations like mine of 33ish? Being able to offer something that other companies are not.. definitely has it's upsides if the market exists for it.

Either way, I guarantee you that they have people much smarter than us who's daily jobs it is to monitor this stuff and analyze sales data from the first batch of them. It's rather incredible what you can get with the internet these days just from metadata. They'll make the decision but I suppose that the entire point here is to give constructive criticism about the mules.

I'm not going to say that I hate working with that material because I don't. I was quite surprised by it's workability into a knife that works. It's torsional strength. However I also think that some of those things are the reason why they don't get as "effective sharp" as others that are on the market but none for a pocket knife that I'm aware of at least that are worth anything.

So, if this was a car on top gear which I grew up with, I'd have to say that. It's like a Honda s2000. It's engine will rev to heck and back, it DOES output power, but leaves a little bit to be desired in the mid range power band. It's a decently solid chassis but the suspension is, when driven at the limit, very likely to kill you. And it's a convertible! (No rust lol)

I could probably type out a better job than that but. Yeah if I'm being honest I'd love to maybe tweak some things if this is .. what I happen to think it is exactly? I've had some ideas for improvement but nobody seems interested in that.

I keep seeing the idea of this being a dive knife, as if it's kind of a saving grace for how this material could be useful, but aren't steels like H1/H2, LCN200, and MagnaCut already sufficiently rust-proof and way tougher?

Pretty much yeah... IMO at least. That's the only use I have thought about also being actually viable.

Jason

[sal]

Hi Tucson Tom.

Sorry for your disappointment. But as Yab said, there are likely other advantages. We made them to see what we all can learn. Gail and I played round with Ceramic knives as possible dive knife use 20+ years ago. We made a number of prototypes with a ceramic company in the US.

So far we've learned that the working edge goes for a very long time. They don't rust, They can break. They can be made to be very sharp.

Comparing to vehicles, as Jason mentioned; I have a company truck, Tundra V8, an Acura TLX - Type "S", a Honda S2000, and a Bobcat. "All good, just different" and none will do what the others will.

sal

[VeraX_Knives]

I believe that the reason they break isn't necessarily the force of the drop but.. resonate vibrations that.. ceramics just don't like. I could cite a bunch of science stuff but I don't actually know that, it's an educated guess.

I have one of these things left that I was .. admittedly not using as an EDC unless I would go out with a firearm or suchlike. Just due to the full tang design honestly nothing more. When I get home in a few hours, ugh Jesus this is painful lol but I.. I'll do some drop testing.. in ways that I know it's going to "want to break" and report back on that. I can say that I have done many tip twist outs into plywood and it's in one piece so it's.. complicated physics but my only issue there?

If you're looking for my .016 adjusted for inflation -- Is that the entire concept of a dive knives as.. most padi guys I know have at a minimum two.. and while in the water all of those vibrations will be.. both exacerbated in some ways and dampened in more common ones, I am going to have trouble selling these to people who are used to cheaper steel thats serrated and/or p/cVD coated. All I can hear in my head is "well jay what if I have to cut something hit a carbineer or .. steel dive weight? Lol I yep said dive weight and then was like mmkay nevermind. Anything really, and what happens if debris hits my leg" which I could say that ya it likely won't break. I just don't have.. answers for those other questions that inherently experienced guys are gonna.. question. "I'm cutting into sand or rock.." (why idk just an example).

I personally think it might be a better material than your experience with it was with the edge. It's actually very difficult to get a proper working edge on it but it IS possible with time and .. time. I was going to say correct tools but. I'm assuming that's a given. As far as toughness? I'ma play around with the vibration dropping and repost with my .016. lol.

[VeraX_Knives]

Okay so minus another one for science. After throwing it around at painted cinder block and dropping it onto concrete at the tip and once that fractured then the edge, I think my little hypothesis was wrong about the vibration deal as, this is when I wish I had a high speed camera, but it seemed to me that it broke more on impact. It's really hard to tell without a like high-speed camera but I used my phone and uncompressed files to check the sound waves on the PC and it seems to support the "break on impact" over "impact-vibrate-break". Especially when I got down to the thick tang I expected it to crack it in half whereas it basically just chipped apart very slowly where it impacted.. which is interesting to me because it breaks under constant force.. I feel differently than a normal ceramic? But I have no scientificish way to test that. Useless data I know haha but data is data it all adds up I guess. I should probably add that I'm a small guy so I don't know comparatively how hard I was throwing it towards the end.

Cheers,
Jas

[WilliamMunny]

On the good side you now don’t need to worry about hurting a $150 knife, already beat up. I say use the **** out of what’s left of it, push it hard and see where the limitations are. If you don’t I am sure someone else would want to without the fear of messing it up.

[VeraX_Knives]

On the good side you now don’t need to worry about hurting a $150 knife, already beat up. I say use the **** out of what’s left of it, push it hard and see where the limitations are. If you don’t I am sure someone else would want to without the fear of messing it up.

Oh I've done multiple types of bend tests on multiple zta mules (8 lol) but the way we break steel is entirely different than the physics behind these types of materials (ceramics would be the category, it's seen it as Ce-TTZ also). Not to mention that they drill holes which makes all of that actual "sciencey" reality not uh. Worth talking about honestly I'm not set up for testing ceramics specifically but they would do all of this on a non machined piece that's just how the data collection processes work. Don't be thinking about stress risers as commonly held.. a circle is obviously ideal but you cannot break test it and get a result that is worth anything besides my own brains opinion which is.. I actually seem to like the material more than others although I couldn't say if I'd do it on the business end. Spyderco has a reputation and like any company.. I'm advising them not to take a risk on half assed production processing for ceramics that I'm not going to get into. It's all about who your target audience is. And way above my pay grade of things that I like to concern myself with, so obviously just an opinion as always!

Spyderco has a reputation and like any company.. I'm advising them not to take a risk on half assed production processing for ceramics that I'm not going to get into.

And for fairness and the record - No. I could not do it any differently or better at that scale I never tried to claim otherwise. Just trying to.. laymen explain ceramic expectations I guess.

-jay

[Steeltoez83]

I think spyderco has already made up their minds about this material but I could be entirely wrong. I do plan on scoring 1 and providing whatever feedback I can provide. I get the benefit of getting a 2nd chance of picking 1 up. First time I've ever seen that on a mule team. If the right appreciation is given in this situation, the concept of re running mule teams has a chance at discussion. Plus providing feedback strengthens the chances of getting other mule team projects down the road.

[VeraX_Knives]

I think spyderco has already made up their minds about this material but I could be entirely wrong. I do plan on scoring 1 and providing whatever feedback I can provide. I get the benefit of getting a 2nd chance of picking 1 up. First time I've ever seen that on a mule team. If the right appreciation is given in this situation, the concept of re running mule teams has a chance at discussion. Plus providing feedback strengthens the chances of getting other mule team projects down the road.

Exactly I'd agree 110% and then some. It's just not a pleasant.. time to be running any size business and .. the literal actual reason why I'm awake now. Honestly steeltoez, I saw that you asked..and while I do have an entirely unopened stock one - I don't think that I can ship it to you for a reasonable cost if .. you are going to have a chance to get it direct. I guess if worst comes to worst I.. was just literally testing the material and I can't say that it's.. properly sharpened or anything like that it's unopened but I guess that.. may be pertinent information if something changes in the future with new drops. It's a nightmare to work with honestly but if you know what you're doing it .. it works. For all intended purposes*. (It's not steel AKA)

[Steveng]

I think spyderco has already made up their minds about this material but I could be entirely wrong. I do plan on scoring 1 and providing whatever feedback I can provide. I get the benefit of getting a 2nd chance of picking 1 up. First time I've ever seen that on a mule team. If the right appreciation is given in this situation, the concept of re running mule teams has a chance at discussion. Plus providing feedback strengthens the chances of getting other mule team projects down the road.

What decision was made?

[Steeltoez83]

I think spyderco has already made up their minds about this material but I could be entirely wrong. I do plan on scoring 1 and providing whatever feedback I can provide. I get the benefit of getting a 2nd chance of picking 1 up. First time I've ever seen that on a mule team. If the right appreciation is given in this situation, the concept of re running mule teams has a chance at discussion. Plus providing feedback strengthens the chances of getting other mule team projects down the road.

What decision was made?

I'm guessing sink or swim but that's just a guess.

[VeraX_Knives]

Yeah basically, they'd at this point I'd assume.. with my extreme lack of business experience but I asked @hollowt1pz for his .02 and he agreed with me and @Steeltoez83 that we're not saying anything about the secondary release for Mule teams.

I think that was being misunderstood. What we're basically saying is just that.. say theoretically they're evaluating whether or not to consider making this alloy into a I'd assume the salt series dive knives as there really isn't much other use for it. So, we're entirely talking theoretically about what we think Spyderco is deciding on for that future, not at all the second release.

@sal, if I'm.. crossing any line or something like that which I obviously don't intend to or guessing about false information, I suppose that you would be able to correct me there which I think we'd all appreciate.

Also, I know I have asked this before kinda.. knowing the answer but theoretically if you guys would put it into production I am assuming you could then release the exact material? I've questioned that one also because I uh. Understand uh. What I think is UK-Swiss business lol? And honestly man I'm not like trying to get any trade secrets here I'm pretty sure that we're both well.. educated enough to know that one lol but could I bother you with getting an answer about that one? Are we able to get (I doubt it), or will be able to get (I also question) in the future? If you don't know exactly, I am not asking you to actually bother asking about it cause I get how some of these contracts read out unfortunately and I didn't go to law school sadface.

I guess if I'm being honest with you I have a pretty good idea of what it's possible mechanical properties are I can tell it's in.. some ranges y'know lol. So I really don't mean to bother you with such a trivial thing that I really don't know why I even care that much (I don't )

- Your bestie Jay Jay the Jet Plane.


This might be a bit much for the mods I'm sorry but for my personality and sense of humor I need to go get my 10mm auto right now my dignity has just gone!

Edit: you know you're talking to a certified nerd when I prefer 10mm lmfao oh what pompous garbage. I laughed at myself there. Go ahead guys - fully okay

[sal]

All this chatter about what Spyderco might do or not do is just speculation. We made the Mule as a Mule. We re getting ready to release the rest of them. After that, we have no idea what we might do with the material. A lot depends on your opinions and tests.

As far as our production goes, we're trying hard to keep up with what we're already making.

If you want one, I suggest you grab it while it's available. As with most Mules, it's probably a one time shot. There is nothing like it on the market.

sal

[Steeltoez83]

I remember having private discussions with Roman aka kknivesswitzerland when he was finally allowed to mention about it years ago. We never discussed the research team that was assembled to get to this material made. We talked about future applications of where this material would excel long before any knives were even made. I am on his books for a piece of nitrobe 77 but that's irrelevant. I like to think I'm fashionably late to this party. Better late than never.

[Tucson Tom]

I've been hiding in my cave since first posting. I'm over the disgruntlement of having dropped and broken this blade. And I thought I would ramble on here and share some thoughts.

A dive knife? I would think not. I would want something really tough and bulletproof. At this point I think maybe Magnacut would be the thing. A fixed blade for sure. So if you have a Magnacut mule, there is your dive knife!

Was an HIC mule a mistake? Absolutely not. This is exactly what the mule team project is about. I am proud of Spyderco that they pushed the envelope this far in this direction.

What will happen with my busted blade? Well if I had powered diamond tooling, I would reshape the tip. It would take forever by hand. I am still scheming on this. Once I had the tip reshaped, I would be interested in experimenting with sharpening the edge. I expect the truth to be that this won't take a super sharp grabby edge, but as has been said, the edge it does take will endure forever.

Where did I go wrong? Well the blade is so light that I didn't notice that it was between some sheets of paper that I pulled off my desk. That would have been less likely if I had a handle on it (gotta get busy with that 3D printer). Of course if it had been a steel blade, I probably would have noticed the weight and/or it wouldn't have been a big deal if it fell on the concrete floor.

Yes I have several mules on my desk without handles that I use regularly. Currently the PMA11 and the PD1 -- two of my favorites.

[VeraX_Knives]

A dive knife? I would think not. I would want something really tough and bulletproof. At this point I think maybe Magnacut would be the thing. A fixed blade for sure. So if you have a Magnacut mule, there is your dive knife!

Na they actually tried to half *** a dive knife and a kitchen material which chips is absolutely garbage and anyone who does knives knows this. I honestly have no real business idea why they did this besides the fact that idiots and people like me are buying it to test what it actually is.

Sal, you are losing people buddy. There's a reason why I don't get the veterans discounts on Mules and they just dropped it from 50% to 40% due to excuses. (Material costs and labor, you're a company - that isn't my problem lmao)

https://gyazo.com/f435499e8bd758b87b23811ef3037ba6

That's serious when it should be a joke. YOU'RE THE COMPANY!