Get me excited about M398

[Steeltoez83]

[attachment=0]Screenshot_20230701_093449_Chart Maker Pro.jpg[/attachment

Just a few edge retention results from my own cut testing. This chart is probably only half of what I've actually tested with a 1k edge at 12-13 dps. I know I've tested spy27, cruwear, rex45, m4, s30v benchmade and spyderco, s35vn spyderco, vg10, aus8, aus 10, s110v, s60v, and 4V. Id have to search for the results on those, but I'd say this is about half of it.

[dlum1]

My wife and I have been using the M398 mule in the kitchen exclusively for the past few weeks (or months at this point?). The edge has dulled but not in the traditional way one would expect. While the edge is no longer shaving sharp, it actually became far more aggressive with use. Under a 10x loupe, I discovered the main cause was micro-chipping with very little rolling. It's basically dulling to a fine saw blade. Since it bites into fruit, vegetables, and meat more aggressively than when we first started using it, I haven't bothered to sharpen it. It's still sharp enough to push cut, but excels at slicing. As a bonus, it's extremely corrosion resistant. It's been left if all sorts of things overnight and there's not a hint of tarnish to the blade. For comparison, I would compare it to a more aggressive S110V in the way the edge breaks down. I suspect this behavior is why the test results above shows M398 wiping the floor with the other steels. With the edge breaking down into fine serrations, the edge is gaining a geometric advantage. I suppose a picture is worth a thousand words. If I can figure out how to post images, I'll take a picture of the edge.

[VandymanG]

IMHO burrs when sharpening are not going to happen on hard steels. A steel that sharpens without burrs is my preference. I know it is hard enough not to deform with the miniscule amount of pressure one applies when sharpening.

I was re-reading this thread and realized that I do not always look to create burrs either. I tend to break out the Diamond plates only when necessary and I try to only go as low as I have to when fixing damage or having trouble getting the knife sharp. I also tend to try to use minimal steps. Currently that’s been around 600 grit. I then switch to ceramic and then strop. I’m just not a fan of stripping steel off of knives that I want to use but that I also want to last a long time. I don’t think I ever got this knife to a burr that being said once I got this knife hair cutting sharp I haven’t had to sharpen it again. It’s got a nice saw bite to it now. I have purchased whetstones lately so maybe I’ll join the tree toppers some day, but I’m not holding my Breathe or guaranteeing that.

[Steeltoez83]

My wife and I have been using the M398 mule in the kitchen exclusively for the past few weeks (or months at this point?). The edge has dulled but not in the traditional way one would expect. While the edge is no longer shaving sharp, it actually became far more aggressive with use. Under a 10x loupe, I discovered the main cause was micro-chipping with very little rolling. It's basically dulling to a fine saw blade. Since it bites into fruit, vegetables, and meat more aggressively than when we first started using it, I haven't bothered to sharpen it. It's still sharp enough to push cut, but excels at slicing. As a bonus, it's extremely corrosion resistant. It's been left if all sorts of things overnight and there's not a hint of tarnish to the blade. For comparison, I would compare it to a more aggressive S110V in the way the edge breaks down. I suspect this behavior is why the test results above shows M398 wiping the floor with the other steels. With the edge breaking down into fine serrations, the edge is gaining a geometric advantage. I suppose a picture is worth a thousand words. If I can figure out how to post images, I'll take a picture of the edge.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that happening. Thankyou for sharing.

[jmj3esq]

Thats fascinating information. I have sharpened my M398 but not actually cut with it yet. Maybe I should give it a whirl next time I tag a deer. That should be a real test. Thanks for the info.

[The Home Slice]

I think he said he’s going to do a dual grit edge.

He might be sending it to this guy:

Hey guys, Gabe here - I finally joined the forum, lol. About 10 years late into my knife obsession. I have been send a M398 Mule from Pete, and hope to test out some dual grit sharpening protocols on it in the next few months.

I'm not sure whether the higher carbide volume will be an added benefit to dual grit or perhaps reduce edge durability. There seems to be a critical mass for carbides beyond which dual grit is a little less stable than an edge taken very fine on diamond.

Cheers.

[jwbnyc]

Hey.

Welcome to the forum.

Looking forward to your findings.

[The Home Slice]

Hey.

Welcome to the forum.

Looking forward to your findings.

Thank you! I've just completed filming on my research on different kinds of stones, and am now working on some steel variations - will keep you guys posted!

[aprivetera]

Anyone else been using the M398 lately? I've swapped it to my primary use knife and I've been more impressed as I use it more. Stays sharp a long time, zero corrosion problems so far, and my favorite thing is it cuts frozen meat without much wear.

It was a bit of a learning curve to figure out how to sharpen it with the Medium Benchstone and Fine Ceramic Triangle Rod. The first few cycles I applied too much pressure and ended up with a very fine microchips on the edge. Low and slow pressure and more passes with between 14 and 17 dps angle seems to be my sweet spot for sharp and wear resistance while still keeping that nice looking edge.

Thoughts from the rest of the members here?

[Jasonfromvk]

Anyone else been using the M398 lately? I've swapped it to my primary use knife and I've been more impressed as I use it more. Stays sharp a long time, zero corrosion problems so far, and my favorite thing is it cuts frozen meat without much wear.

It was a bit of a learning curve to figure out how to sharpen it with the Medium Benchstone and Fine Ceramic Triangle Rod. The first few cycles I applied too much pressure and ended up with a very fine microchips on the edge. Low and slow pressure and more passes with between 14 and 17 dps angle seems to be my sweet spot for sharp and wear resistance while still keeping that nice looking edge.

Thoughts from the rest of the members here?

Exactly what my rex 86 ones are for kitchen use. The Spyderco mule teams primary grinds are not going to be ideal for the kitchen, they'll work but they're more designed for EDC or utility work.

[Steeltoez83]

I think M398 works well at 15-17 degrees per side. I found in my own use/ testing it didnt have the strength/stability to handle lower angles. So i had to raise the edge angle higher than i personally prefer to decrease the rapid apex deformation i was seeing. Once i found that sweet spot its held up quite well. I still have a brand new mule i plan on comparing side by side to the HIC mule whenever that next drop happens. Right now im testing the CBN and diamond triangle rods against each other in the mean time.

[Jasonfromvk]

I think M398 works well at 15-17 degrees per side. I found in my own use/ testing it didnt have the strength/stability to handle lower angles. So i had to raise the edge angle higher than i personally prefer to decrease the rapid apex deformation i was seeing. Once i found that sweet spot its held up quite well. I still have a brand new mule i plan on comparing side by side to the HIC mule whenever that next drop happens. Right now im testing the CBN and diamond triangle rods against each other in the mean time.

I've never personally worked with M398, too boring for me, however @Steeltoez83, if you want a HIC that's gone through a lot of testing and has lost some of its blade height and has been cut in half so you can regrind the handle into another edge, I got one just pm me. I initially was going to test a few things for the material, but I honestly got lazy. Mike, @hollowt1pz, is taking it upon himself to screw around with it for woodworking tools since it's a ceramic it works so smooth on wood he's obsessed with it and wood now. I suppose I know why. Hahahahahahaha....yeaa not funny. Sue me.

Jason Ward

[Steeltoez83]

I think M398 works well at 15-17 degrees per side. I found in my own use/ testing it didnt have the strength/stability to handle lower angles. So i had to raise the edge angle higher than i personally prefer to decrease the rapid apex deformation i was seeing. Once i found that sweet spot its held up quite well. I still have a brand new mule i plan on comparing side by side to the HIC mule whenever that next drop happens. Right now im testing the CBN and diamond triangle rods against each other in the mean time.

I've never personally worked with M398, too boring for me, however @Steeltoez83, if you want a HIC that's gone through a lot of testing and has lost some of its blade height and has been cut in half so you can regrind the handle into another edge, I got one just pm me. I initially was going to test a few things for the material, but I honestly got lazy. Mike, @hollowt1pz, is taking it upon himself to screw around with it for woodworking tools since it's a ceramic it works so smooth on wood he's obsessed with it and wood now. I suppose I know why. Hahahahahahaha....yeaa not funny. Sue me.

Jason Ward

Respectfully I have to decline that offer bcuz it interferes with the spirit of testing I wish to perform. Plus I only have a 1x30 belt sander which is not ideal for that project. I have a lot of obligations to fulfill currently, and waiting for the HIC re release is not a detriment for me atleast. M398 and HIC are both not winning awards for their toughness, so the plan is set the M398 at a sub 15 dps angle and the HIC at 17-18 ish to make fair comparison testing. I like using a combo of ice block chopping and sanding roll cutting to replicate a more realistic view into real world use with multiple blunting mechanisms. Its my belief that those who purchase 150 dollar knives have a fair amount of self awareness in how they use their cutting tools. And after 5 or 7 side by side comparison tests I can view long term regression or progression in both mules. Testing the 2 blunting mechanisms against the the controlled cut testing numbers has been my personal way to evaluate an acceptable amount of toughness and stability of steels and their heat treats. Sometimes my cut tests match Dr Larrin’s numbers, sometimes they don’t. I can only evaluate my own edges and articulate what Ive seen with the data sets I create. Rapid apex decline indicates the alloy/ht can not withstand the workload applied and raising the edge angle is the obvious solution. I need both samples to be at their respective genesis states to ensure proper evaluation. Again thanks for the offer but I will have to respectfully decline.

[sal]

This is really good information. Appreciate the Real World testing.

Hey Steeltoes,

Did yours break up like Dlum's at the lower angles?

sal

[Steeltoez83]

In my controlled strictly cut testing, the M398 mule achieved the highest results in a very controlled environment. Higher than maxamet, k390, 15V, and I believe I tested the M398 mule twice at edges 6 and 7 with same results. When I went to use it outside of a controlled environment I was getting s30v longevity in the edge. Took me a little time to really dial in the best way for me to enjoy this specific steel. What Dlum mentioned about microserration formation does make sense given my test numbers. But M398 is also 32% carbide volume which should be looked at too. However I would guess at low angles M398 doesn't have the strength to support them atleast at 13 ish dps. I've never taken any ceramic benchstones to this mule just diamonds and cbn with no trouble at all. I hope that answers your question Sal. I would have continued testing further but I acquired the Aeb-l mule and since my urban slipit rockwelled at only 58.3 hrc. And the mule from my understanding hit 63 hrc according to BigBrownBear Shawn. I wanted to give Aeb-l the attention it deserved.

[sal]

Thanx Steeltoes,

sal

[VeraX_Knives]

In my controlled strictly cut testing, the M398 mule achieved the highest results in a very controlled environment. Higher than maxamet, k390, 15V, and I believe I tested the M398 mule twice at edges 6 and 7 with same results. When I went to use it outside of a controlled environment I was getting s30v longevity in the edge. Took me a little time to really dial in the best way for me to enjoy this specific steel. What Dlum mentioned about microserration formation does make sense given my test numbers. But M398 is also 32% carbide volume which should be looked at too. However I would guess at low angles M398 doesn't have the strength to support them atleast at 13 ish dps. I've never taken any ceramic benchstones to this mule just diamonds and cbn with no trouble at all. I hope that answers your question Sal. I would have continued testing further but I acquired the Aeb-l mule and since my urban slipit rockwelled at only 58.3 hrc. And the mule from my understanding hit 63 hrc according to BigBrownBear Shawn. I wanted to give Aeb-l the attention it deserved.

M398 isn't quite 32% carbide, more around 26-8% according to computers and what carbides we're making important. Where on earth did you get that from? KSN? Larrin isn't always right. Neither am I, but unlike him I will publicly admit it. I challenge you to find ONE post or anything where Sir Larrin Thomas has actually typed the words I was wrong. I'm not talking about assumptions, but when I'm testing I .. f up all the time and so much thought has to go into everything that I just can't.. respect him for that behavior. What he says I'm not saying is wrong or anything like that because it's not. At least what I have read which isn't much, but considering he's technically higher educated than myself (that's a joke but nonetheless), I wouldn't necessarily trust it just because science is the act of not trusting anything that's known and questioning things we think we know, but I would "trust" it if you know what I mean by that. He's not a dumb guy we just have different.. ways of thinking about things. His being more realistic mine being more research oriented than.. an outcome other than an answer for myself. And others. Education is a scam. Trust the guy with the debt. Hahaha.

Also, I can't say that I read everything here but what are your "controlled tests" exactly? No I am not here to criticize you I'm just I suppose genuinely curious. I always alter my mediums so. You may teach me something new.

[Steeltoez83]

I journaled my testing experiments on my IG account more for my own curiosity. They have fluctuated over the years to better dial in relevancy to the user experience. I do this as a hobby not a career. And I prefer to test samples from production runs like mule teams, and production folders. I took a break from testing when my wife was run over by a drunk driver so I have been out of the game for a little while. Id use sanding rolls as my cutting medium bcuz I could cut in the air and not have outside forces like a cutting board affect results. I use 1 inch, 1.5 inch, and 2 inch diameter rolls based on the cutting edge length of the knife I'm testing. I use a 1k super vitrified diamond stone to apply my own freehand edge. And I have my own standards for when dulling has occurred to stop testing. And once I am able to build a baseline of ideal level performance, my backyard bro science equal to catra testing, I can bridge other variables into the equation from that point.

[VeraX_Knives]

I journaled my testing experiments on my IG account more for my own curiosity. They have fluctuated over the years to better dial in relevancy to the user experience. I do this as a hobby not a career. And I prefer to test samples from production runs like mule teams, and production folders. I took a break from testing when my wife was run over by a drunk driver so I have been out of the game for a little while. Id use sanding rolls as my cutting medium bcuz I could cut in the air and not have outside forces like a cutting board affect results. I use 1 inch, 1.5 inch, and 2 inch diameter rolls based on the cutting edge length of the knife I'm testing. I use a 1k super vitrified diamond stone to apply my own freehand edge. And I have my own standards for when dulling has occurred to stop testing. And once I am able to build a baseline of ideal level performance, my backyard bro science equal to catra testing, I can bridge other variables into the equation from that point.

CATRA results, in my personal scientific opinion as. Someone who bought one and regrets it hahahahahaha , and I guess have to say nerd that spent the last decade of my life reading about applied/theoretical physics and inorganic chemistry because o chem I'm too stupid for, are exactly what you said. It's one dataset on one material that, sure may be really accurate but say with the HIC, I also used a phone book and the tester graphs everything so it's very easy to see the difference between mediums. I may actually just stick a recommendation in to do something not.. necessarily ror bonded hard abrasives and add something to compare it to if you have the time to. Cardboard, rope, something like that which you would usually use it on unless you're a high carbide volume guy like me. Reason why I am saying this is I heard you mention Abel and.. with that one being so different, I believe that you actually may like it. I believe there's a place for every steel and if you want to get something really sharp. Very easy to do that and you get a prettier edge. Another.. odd sharpening tip that I learned from Mike was using induction heat to intentionally detemper just the very edge, very slightly to prevent chipping on extreme angles of 60+ rc stuff. Haven't tried it myself yet but if it works on anything it should work on Abel and more normal martensitic steels.

[sal]

Hey Jason,

We don't bash each other here. Not Larrin or anybody else. Not negotiable. My forum. My rules.

sal