How about a PM60 Mule?

[Hatuletoh]

Apologies if I'm not the first to suggest it, but I recently came across a Kunwu folder with PM60 blade steel. According to my handy Knife Steel Composition phone app, PM60 is an "extremely high alloy, high speed tool steel. Capable of very high red hot hardness, up to 68-70 HRC. Highly wear resistant steel." It's made by the Scana, a Norwegian steel manufacturer, but Hitachi makes an equivalent called HAP72 that's been used by Kiya for kitchen knives, and Bohler-Uddeholm has a version called Vanadis 60. Any of them seems like they would be interesting for a mule team blade.

[sal]

Hi Hatuletoh,

Interesting chemistry. Do you know of any companies making a cutting tool(s) with any of the versions?

sal

[Ramonade]

Concerning PM60 I've only seen Kunwu Knives use it in their Chad model for now.
But HAP72 can be found in kitchen knives like sold by OXYS knives or Kiya.

[Jasonfromvk]

Hi Hatuletoh,

Interesting chemistry. Do you know of any companies making a cutting tool(s) with any of the versions?

sal

I was going to post this in the rex121 thread, but my personal opinion is that you guys should stop doing research on ceramics. Mike apparently thinks that I dislike you Sal, which is just incorrect. They're definitely certain things that we would agree use,disagree on but I obviously have a brain and can respect what you have done, during times that as I have learned from Mike we're a bit worse than I realized during the 80s and 90s etcetera.

I have a deal with ZPM for rex 86. It's what we all use (by that one I mean me my employees and Mike and his, people don't make kitchen knives in steel city anymore )

I was literally just in Dusseldorf this past week and am flying back next week .. er this week to eddk for further discussions.

I could ask about some pricing for TN production, but we both know that would require our lawyers to get together. I'm honestly okay with that, I am not looking to make money or anything just offering to not work against each other hah. They'll figure the details out obviously.

As far as "PM60" on zknives, @sal is definitely correct on the chemistry. It's very... not right? I don't know how to say that. Extreme deltas in the specs so, that inherently means.. extreme deltas in the final product. If you had to ask me my .02? Just use something that is more stringent cause as someone like Larrin Thomas, I'm seeing a lot of Red flags if certain elements were in certain proportions within the allowed specifications. However you guys don't know me, so don't trust me, which is understandable but. I encourage you to at least entertain it.

[vanka]

Apologies if I'm not the first to suggest it, but I recently came across a Kunwu folder with PM60 blade steel. According to my handy Knife Steel Composition phone app, PM60 is an "extremely high alloy, high speed tool steel. Capable of very high red hot hardness, up to 68-70 HRC. Highly wear resistant steel." It's made by the Scana, a Norwegian steel manufacturer, but Hitachi makes an equivalent called HAP72 that's been used by Kiya for kitchen knives, and Bohler-Uddeholm has a version called Vanadis 60. Any of them seems like they would be interesting for a mule team blade.

It's not a bad idea but as far as I know Kunwu uses the Chinese made steel Assab PM60 and it has it's differences with Scana PM60. In my experience Assab PM60 is prone to rust. A lot. Uncoated would be difficult to maintain.

Edit
Quick Google search confirmed the Assab PM60 composition as it is on the pictures.
Scana is now Bjorneborg Steel and I could find any steel specs.

[sal]

Hi Jasonfromvk,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[Hatuletoh]

Hi Hatuletoh,

Interesting chemistry. Do you know of any companies making a cutting tool(s) with any of the versions?

sal

No sir, I'm afraid I don't. My only knowledge about steel has come from what I've learned in the few years since I developed a raging knife addiction. But as you say, the chemistry seemed interesting--one might say "extreme"--even to my amateur eyes.

[sal]

I'll be studying the composition differences next week. We're always looking for new and better. K390 came about because I was studying chemistry of BU steels and asked them to make some for me. I explained our program and the potential for future sales so they agreed to make some. It took a long time to get the steel, another bunch of time in testing, Mule Teams, learning how to grind it, working with out makers to learn to grind it. The project took years before we could actually deliver, but the research proved worthwhile as many knife afi's like the material.

I never say never, but we'll look into it. I'd also like to hear thoughts from you.

sal

[Hatuletoh]

Apologies if I'm not the first to suggest it, but I recently came across a Kunwu folder with PM60 blade steel. According to my handy Knife Steel Composition phone app, PM60 is an "extremely high alloy, high speed tool steel. Capable of very high red hot hardness, up to 68-70 HRC. Highly wear resistant steel." It's made by the Scana, a Norwegian steel manufacturer, but Hitachi makes an equivalent called HAP72 that's been used by Kiya for kitchen knives, and Bohler-Uddeholm has a version called Vanadis 60. Any of them seems like they would be interesting for a mule team blade.

It's not a bad idea but as far as I know Kunwu uses the Chinese made steel Assab PM60 and it has it's differences with Scana PM60. In my experience Assab PM60 is prone to rust. A lot. Uncoated would be difficult to maintain.

Edit
Quick Google search confirmed the Assab PM60 composition as it is on the pictures.
Scana is now Bjorneborg Steel and I could find any steel specs.

Very interesting, thank you. I got the composition shown below for Assab PM60 from a pdf on their website, and it looks like the Cr is actually a little higher than what's listed for Vanadis 60 and HAP72 in the Steel Composition app, although that thing also says Assab is a Swedish company, so who knows how accurate the info is? Although Assab is a distributor for Uddeholm, so perhaps that's where the confusion comes from. In any case, I wonder what makes their PM60 more prone to rust? Maybe the Assab alloy has less free chromium? It looks like there's a bit less molybdenum and quite a lot less tungsten in the Assab alloy than in HAP72, which might mean more Cr is tied up in carbides and therefore not contributing to corrosion resistance. Just a guess, I'm certainly no expert.
Living in the desert as I do, I almost never have problems with rust, even on indifferently maintained tool steel blades. The only rust that's appeared on my T15 mule after months of use has been on the handle when I've been too lazy to properly dry under the scales after washing it with soap and water. Have you found PM60 to be harder to maintain than other tool steels, or are you just in an environment where rust is an issue on any steel that's not reasonably stain-resistant?

[Jasonfromvk]

Hi Jasonfromvk,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

Thanks, and sorry for any misunderstandings in the past.

I don't believe that you were asking my personal opinion on the chemistry, it's.. I'm not going to say a basic alloy the higher .7 Si is something that I personally have been looking into with a modified cpm MPL-1 (which I think people would like[Mike definitely does] just as much, most have no idea what it is but as far as working that material well.. I'd say what's the difference, PM60 is going to have more primary and secondary carbides eta etc but the "in my head" composition comparison between those two options, I'd have to recommend I suppose PM60 due to toughness)

I had no idea that you guys were the reason behind K390. That's cool. It does unfortunately tell me how much power you actually have compared to my little rinky dink co-operation. We're worlds apart, I have no idea how many mules you guys usually make for a release, but we only sell roughly 4 knives a week lmao . Granted I don't advertise or market. That doesn't mean that I would not take 500-1klbs of material if somehow my addition brought the cost down a.. couple cents it's more a favor to us because of your size?

Yeah sal, I am compared to you whatever comes before amateur. I've never honestly thought any different. Sure I wish that I had say a dad like Larrin or you with Eric, however that just isn't the case so I had to do everything the harder way which obviously isn't a negative thing. Now that I have been at this a few years (wow lol), I know a bit more than I did in the beginning about the industry also thanks to @hollowt1pz who I have learned a great deal from, although he'd probably say the same thing.

Since I have never done this before with you guys I don't know entirely what's involved besides explicitly, but if you guys happen to say.. have leftover material or the possibility of me getting some of whatever you make next, would you be willing to let the lawyers work it out in some way that I have no ties to Spyderco? I have to ask, I apologize for it but hey sal if you were me at my age tell me it wouldn't have crossed your mind also I don't think Eric would mind. Could be wrong however!

[hollowt1pz]

I'll be studying the composition differences next week. We're always looking for new and better. K390 came about because I was studying chemistry of BU steels and asked them to make some for me. I explained our program and the potential for future sales so they agreed to make some. It took a long time to get the steel, another bunch of time in testing, Mule Teams, learning how to grind it, working with out makers to learn to grind it. The project took years before we could actually deliver, but the research proved worthwhile as many knife afi's like the material.

I never say never, but we'll look into it. I'd also like to hear thoughts from you.

sal

*Cough CPM MPL-1 please cough* it's stainless! Hah.

[legOFwhat?]

Always down for new mules.

[VeraX_Knives]

I'll be studying the composition differences next week. We're always looking for new and better. K390 came about because I was studying chemistry of BU steels and asked them to make some for me. I explained our program and the potential for future sales so they agreed to make some. It took a long time to get the steel, another bunch of time in testing, Mule Teams, learning how to grind it, working with out makers to learn to grind it. The project took years before we could actually deliver, but the research proved worthwhile as many knife afi's like the material.

I never say never, but we'll look into it. I'd also like to hear thoughts from you.

sal

*Cough CPM MPL-1 please cough* it's stainless! Hah.

Finally got the account working (emails take a second!)

[barnaclesonaboat]

Sounds like an interesting chemistry to me - I'm fond of the high-HRC mules and would be interested in testing/use if the opportunity arises down the road.

[sal]

Hi Jason,

Glad you got your registration sorted. Also glad you decided to join. We do have a lot going on here, that I think you might find interesting..

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about with lawyers, etc. I guess you'll have to be more specific. Sometimes I'm slow. But I'm not big on lawyers and try to avoid them if possible. If you have some material(s) that you think will make a good Mule Team, we are, all of us, open.

We try to bring out a Mule Team every quarter. Some are harder than others and take longer. We try to begin each project long in advance. I find that is also true of designs, which always seem to take longer to get finished and to market than planned/hoped. The Mule Team group are a very special kind of OCD nuts that are seeking more experience in the "Art of the Cut". We build and test materials that are used to separate matter with an edge.

As far as people and power goes; I have a couple of comments;

When my wife, Gail, and I began Spyderco, we were homeless, living in a bread delivery truck that we converted to a motor home. We towed a VW bug with our equipment. We traveled back and forth across the Country with our 2 year old daughter, building product in campgrounds and selling them in fairs and shows. This is a great Country that we live in. We hope to be an inspiration to others. "Persistence is King".

We are tiny little drops of life stuck on the side of a round rock whirling through space. Let's keep things in perspective.

Hey Mike,

Need more info on CPM MPL-1. I can get the chemistry from Crucible. What's it used for? Whose using it? etc?

sal

[hollowt1pz]

Hey Mike,

Need more info on CPM MPL-1. I can get the chemistry from Crucible. What's it used for? Whose using it? etc?

sal

I don't believe that it has ever been used, Jason would know more about that one but from what I do know? It's been patented. I'm assuming that it never went into production due to the c/cr chemistry or something like that, but my assumptions would be that uh. Machining corrosive polymers? I suppose? This is where I should check the patent but cold work tool steel category I suppose with high corrosion resistance (24cr+3mo). It's not gonna be very tough but as far as something for a kitchen knife(sorry but that's sorta what I specialize in, I do know you guys don't), or a Mule, Jason thinks that it actually would work quite well he just said to drop the carbon to 3.2ish W to 7ish but that's more of a Larrin-type and him discussion that's a little bit over my head personally. Probably would honestly be a nightmare to machine also, but nothing is impossible just.. what's relevant to the people buying them. I've wanted to try this stuff years and years ago, I'd have to guess circa ~'99-'00 but the old memory isn't exactly what it used to be. Never got the chance to have a melt done or, for that matter, thought about it was too busy with more important stuff. Now that I'm old however.... Dot Dot Dot. Haha. I messaged Jason he's probably asleep but I have no doubt that he'll chime in here about more science bs than we can digest and maybe see what happens - can't say I know exactly what he's thinking I have an idea? but.. assUming is usually a bad idea also.

[VeraX_Knives]

Hi Jason,

Glad you got your registration sorted. Also glad you decided to join. We do have a lot going on here, that I think you might find interesting..

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about with lawyers, etc. I guess you'll have to be more specific. Sometimes I'm slow. But I'm not big on lawyers and try to avoid them if possible. If you have some material(s) that you think will make a good Mule Team, we are, all of us, open.

We try to bring out a Mule Team every quarter. Some are harder than others and take longer. We try to begin each project long in advance. I find that is also true of designs, which always seem to take longer to get finished and to market than planned/hoped. The Mule Team group are a very special kind of OCD nuts that are seeking more experience in the "Art of the Cut". We build and test materials that are used to separate matter with an edge.

As far as people and power goes; I have a couple of comments;

When my wife, Gail, and I began Spyderco, we were homeless, living in a bread delivery truck that we converted to a motor home. We towed a VW bug with our equipment. We traveled back and forth across the Country with our 2 year old daughter, building product in campgrounds and selling them in fairs and shows. This is a great Country that we live in. We hope to be an inspiration to others. "Persistence is King".

We are tiny little drops of life stuck on the side of a round rock whirling through space. Let's keep things in perspective.

Hey Mike,

Need more info on CPM MPL-1. I can get the chemistry from Crucible. What's it used for? Whose using it? etc?

sal

Hey sal, thank you. I gotta say a couple of things. I should probably start with.. I'll be honest with you I did not know those details specifically, but I do recall either watching on YouTube or reading the history of the company, I have a partially eidetic memory unfortunately so I can misplace memories. I'd like to correct a few things that Mike said incorrectly although he knows what I think.

You are absolutely correct that this country is the best in the world. I challenge ANYONE to argue that with me. Now, I have to admit that I didn't know that during that timeframe you were raising a daughter, and the balancing of everything, not to mention trying to start a business. I suppose I am in a rather unique position to comment as I have a 14 year old son that I don't know or see because of that psychology thing, and I suppose me being a dumbass and not taking her to court immediately but again, psychology lol. I waited until he was conscious which was a mistake. Life goes on, unfortunately. However yeah, if I'm being 110% honest I've always respected you personally. Maybe not to the.. saintly point of some people but if I know you personally, I am pretty good with psychology sociology stuff with text due to my age, I fully believe that you would.. not exactly want people to think that lol. I know I wouldn't. Regardless, a great example of what my own generation just does not have the ability to do. WORK. Foresight. Now, of course I am going to admit that I am human and whatnot but. I suppose that you would be in the category of people whom I hold high regard with and that isn't exactly a long list. Since this is... My "opinion correction" post, also being 110% honest, while I myself have never had an issue with any Spyderco I've owned or anything like that, I have heard around the house that, Jesus Christ man how do I say this man to man honestly. I guess I just do. Basically I have heard some negative things about.. Eric. Now I am not saying that I could do any better than him in 2024 with a US company. I firmly believe that I couldn't. However you know how... Certainly I'm not going to call them constructive criticisms, but people talk. Now yeah, normally I am and even in this case the type of guy that forms his own opinions of which I don't have enough information to, but I haven't been alive long enough to.. know if some of the criticism is genuine or if you want my other opinion? It's people that don't understand the economy and likely couldn't care less about it. That's a bit overarching, but sums up my opinions.

I can say that you have played a part in why I started doing this. Namely, those special alloys that.. IMO idiots want but if it sells it sells. So you're doing your part.

And don't tempt me with the mule team thing man lol I guarantee. GUARANTEE you are going to think that I am kidding or something but.. ya no I could and would do that job for free. OCD nerds? Where's the sign up sheet. Hahaha.

About what I said about lawyers, oh you made my day. I can't stand em or the concept, the ONLY reason I mentioned that one is that I have truly no idea how you guys operate and I honestly thought that you may want something saying that I won't do x y or z. It had absolutely nothing to do with money or protection either side or whatever that they bs their way into a 20+ page contract of which I have signed too many. When just 3-5 pages are fine. Oh wait I'm not a lawyer. Forgot that how it works. It's like politics except worse.

About MPL-1, what Mike said is.. Er. Wrong answer. Well sorta ish. I definitely would modify the composition and I have run a bunch of high cr high si alloys through jmatpro and thermocalcs calphad which I think gives more accurate phase details. What would I do exactly? I honestly don't know and well I suppose what Mike said is.. on the right track I'm well aware that I need to do a lot of further research to.. bring this to you guys so the nerd stuff is in the "Jason needs to make sure he knows what he's talking about 110% first" phase. Does seem like it could be an interesting steel though. 20cv on roids? Lol. I'd think by that composition I gotta lower as Mike said carbon and tungsten but then..eh **** 3% moly. As I said I need to think about it lol.

[sal]

Hi Jason,

Thanx for the kind words.

We all do our best and, "We all operate at different levels of imperfection".

As far as Mule Teams go, as I said, we're always open. Someone brings up a material on this forum and there is a pretty good chance we might run a Mule with it. I watch reaction to determine (guess) demand. We purchase the material from the manufacturer. Figure out how to work it, test it to see if we can do it, then we build a pre-determined quantity, based on a "guess" of how many you want. We sell them consumer direct to keep the cost as low as possible. Not a good business model, but there is value in other areas. Some have sold out in hours, which means we probably didn't make enough. Sometimes they hang around for months, which means we made too many for the demand.

This is a project that I came up with years go. First time, no one wanted it. second try went. We disco'd the project after a few years due to lack of interest. Then demand caused us to try again. Kristi and her team deserve the credit for this sub forum and she, Mike and I moderate. That should catch you and Mike up, and anyone else that might be a newer member to the Mule Team..

sal

[VeraX_Knives]

Hi Jason,

Thanx for the kind words.

We all do our best and, "We all operate at different levels of imperfection".

As far as Mule Teams go, as I said, we're always open. Someone brings up a material on this forum and there is a pretty good chance we might run a Mule with it. I watch reaction to determine (guess) demand. We purchase the material from the manufacturer. Figure out how to work it, test it to see if we can do it, then we build a pre-determined quantity, based on a "guess" of how many you want. We sell them consumer direct to keep the cost as low as possible. Not a good business model, but there is value in other areas. Some have sold out in hours, which means we probably didn't make enough. Sometimes they hang around for months, which means we made too many for the demand.

This is a project that I came up with years go. First time, no one wanted it. second try went. We disco'd the project after a few years due to lack of interest. Then demand caused us to try again. Kristi and her team deserve the credit for this sub forum and she, Mike and I moderate. That should catch you and Mike up, and anyone else that might be a newer member to the Mule Team..

sal

Well hey sir no problem just being completely honest there. I was inspired by the company that you.. quite literally spent your life creating. Now was I thinking that I could take what you guys did and do it better for the kitchen side of the market? Well. Maybe

So a little bit about me? Around COVID, someone showed me about KSN. For a few months I didn't think anything of it, was relatively happy with my computer job. That latter part changed. Then I noticed that after a few times of watching cooking shows on TV and conversation with people that everything they consider common knowledge is... Well not that and incorrect or not full information. I guess you could say that it started with firearms technically but. Nonetheless. Staying with the honesty theme, I thought maybe this would be a business opportunity but soon learned that it's just not that even if you end up teaching people, I'll lose 3 out of 4. But those 1 out of 4 will continually come back for more. So I didn't have..or expect for that matter, since I had a job at the time, a profit opportunity necessarily as much as I do this still for people for the landed costs only plus shipping. Incredibly stupid why would I do such a thing? Well, to me it's what separates it from a hobby to a jobby to a job lol. I am however getting much closer to the 'job' part of it and I'm not talking about the Bible.

So I personally totally understand what you mean by both the information value and business model returns. I have spent since then trying to scale up and figure a way to actually do this here in Pittsburgh, but honestly I've mostly given up. There's just not the people that I need for it left here. Now I was a dumbass and quit my PC job being the typical.. cocky 33 year old and have regrets hahahahaha.

viewtopic.php?t=80045

So we weren't the first. Now do I personally think that specific composition is a little bit insane? Sure. But if we're talking business side here, if I walk up to the average guy and say you want a carbon steel knife? It's got the most carbon! Hopefully they don't know what casting is. Ha. Yes I'm obviously being sarcastic there I don't like screwing people over.

But you did ask for material ideas and while I'm half and half on that, I can't say that I have even run the composition in software to know anything. I never really expected to ever see it but I can do that and see if what is in my head is... what actually happens in chemistry. Hey, at least it's inorganics!

Also, I. If you guys ever need.. I hate doing this but if you want to give a guy a job hahaha, I really wasn't kidding earlier about well a pretty big life change. Kinda caught me at the right time in my personal life and as long as you don't stick me on CNC programming, done deal . Don't worry, I come cheap.

I'm allergic to money. I've seen too many of the negatives. Just saying, I didn't grow up with money initially either but that changed when I was a teenager.

I'm sorry I still can't get over the 3.8% C in that stuff.

And @hollowt1pz , why would I lower the tungsten? It's basically non existent and just to delay some stuff. Text me when you get a moment and we'll do a better job with the computers. @sal , what scientific information would you like me to run through software that being a PC nerd I don't have to pay for thankfully? I'm assuming phase diagrams obviously but what else? These programs can do a lot of things and they do differ in results sometimes more than I would expect. I'm assuming you have them at Spyderco but thinking about it I don't know why you would so that's my reason for asking

[hollowt1pz]

Hey @sal, I have a question. Slightly loaded. I'm just conferring with Jason and we're at a bit of an impasse. While he has some personal stuff going on in his life and I absolutely died laughing at him telling me that he actually asked you for a job. I'm assuming that you don't really do much day to day operations stuff and I'd have my kid do it also hahaha.

My ultimate question I suppose would be.. I know that there's a lot of opportunities in Golden/Denver. Do you honestly think that our groups could benefit each other's? Basically you got two types of people.. I have a BS in electrical engineering, Jason won't say this over the internet but he does have a MS in MSE from CMU.. that's why him and Larrin kinda.. agree to disagree on some things. I am not that guy at all but I have the actual experience of working in the industry for years as, I started off as a foundry worker foreman, went to austempering as the#2, then they threw me into marketing for a short term and then development and marketing. Jason has a few good qualities that I don't want to sound like his agent or something but. Someone took my line and basically already said it. I can personally vouch that he's not joking about.

I'm allergic to money.