Sal, a handle forward Lil Native?

[Wartstein]

It seems we are discussing removing the choil on the blade + handle and shifting the handle edge/nub forward and the blade edge backwards. If we kept the same handle length, it would give more edge on that blade length and a 3 - 3.5 finger grip on the handle. This would have the sharp edge of the blade just in front of the handle and (hopefully) have a slight nub on the handle to prevent the hand sliding forward. Take a look at the edge of the handle near the blade on both the Bodacious and Lil' Temp 3. I think that is what is proposed, but with the spine of the blade more flush with the handle as on the Lil' Native and Bodacious. I do like the edge being a little closer to the handle as on the Lil' Temp 3 if we're trying to maximize the edge length.

Now someone is getting it.

I think everbody here "got it"

I have no dog in the race anyway, since the Lil Native is just not my kind of folder (well, the LW with its thinner blade and lighter weight could come closer to what I prefer).
And I am glad should those who want a choil-less Lil Native get just that!

All I am saying and that is said here is:

Just like the DFly and for my hands also the Chap the choil is mandatory on folders (handles) that small size to offer a good four finger grip. If the Lil Native would go choil-less, yes, this would offer more edge (great...) and offer more space on the handle than now the model has BEHIND the choil.
But as far as I can see still not enough for a good four finger grip.

Exactly in this small size the "invention" of the choil is so ingenous, cause one can get a good grip on a knife that is very short when closed.
The size where a choil makes the most sense imo.

Completely different story with the Native 5:

HERE a choil actually makes the LEAST sense imho.
A choil-less Native 5 would, differently to the Lil Native, definitely offer enough space on the handle for almost all hand sizes AND give us more cutting edge. Win-win in my book. While the current Native 5 unnecessarily forces hands like mine to choke up on the choil that additionally eats up edge length, while the overall actual handle length would be more than long enough for a good four finger grip if it had NO choil. As it is, BEHIND that choil it is too short.

In knives LARGER than a Native 5 a choil can be very nice again: Gives one TWO good four finger grip options: Behind the choil and choked up on it.

[nerdlock]

Please make it a wharnie though if possible like the Rockjumper and the LN wharnie.

Microjimbo has entered the chat.

Could a leaf/drop point blade be put on the more neutral handle shape of the microjimbo? Or is the microjimbo handle only capable of supporting the low tip placement of a wharncliffe?

I think Mike Janich designed the Yojimbo series to be Wharncliffe only, in deference to their intended design as a primarily self-defense knife.

[StuntZombie]

I get what you're saying Doc Dan, and I agree with you. I'm not a fan of the grips on the Native or the Lil' Native. They just never felt great in my hands.

[Doc Dan]

I get what you're saying Doc Dan, and I agree with you. I'm not a fan of the grips on the Native or the Lil' Native. They just never felt great in my hands.

You are right. They are just not right, somehow. I'd rather have a more neutral and choiless handle on both, with more edge. When I want a 3" blade I want a 3" blade, if you get my drift.

[TimButterfield]

Please make it a wharnie though if possible like the Rockjumper and the LN wharnie.

Microjimbo has entered the chat.

Could a leaf/drop point blade be put on the more neutral handle shape of the microjimbo? Or is the microjimbo handle only capable of supporting the low tip placement of a wharncliffe?

Comparing what I think is being proposed vs the microjimbo, I suspect the microjimbo differs in at least these ways:

To protect the hand from sliding on stabbing motions, the front of the handle on the microjimbo is beefier than needed for a slicing action. This may reduce the number of fingers that can fit on the grip.

Compare the distance from handle to edge of the Lil' Temp vs the microjimbo. The blade edge of the microjimbo starts further forward than desired for this application.

[Doc Dan]

One advantage this idea would have is a cutting edge as long as the Chaparral. The Chaparral is really hard to beat, I know. I have two and wonderful knives they are. The LN would benefit and still keep the blade legal in most places, though.

[Bolster]

...Completely different story with the Native 5: HERE a choil actually makes the LEAST sense imho.
A choil-less Native 5 would, differently to the Lil Native, definitely offer enough space on the handle for almost all hand sizes AND give us more cutting edge. Win-win in my book. While the current Native 5 unnecessarily forces hands like mine to choke up on the choil that additionally eats up edge length, while the overall actual handle length would be more than long enough for a good four finger grip if it had NO choil.....

^ Very much agree. Mark me down as another afi who would like to see a variant of the standard Native get "Bodaciousized" with a forward design and a very limited ricasso.

[Wartstein]

One advantage this idea would have is a cutting edge as long as the Chaparral. The Chaparral is really hard to beat, I know. I have two and wonderful knives they are. The LN would benefit and still keep the blade legal in most places, though.

Doc (and others) since I never had a Lil Native one question:

- The Lil Natives handle is only 3 mm shorter than the Chaparral handle (3.47" vs 3.6"), but the Lil Native blade is a full 10 mm shorter than the Chaparral blade (2.42 vs 2.8") (talking about the whole BLADE, not the cutting edge):

How does the Chap manage to do achieve that much better handle to blade ratio?

+ Is the Chap blade just more handle filling (so the Lil Native would have space for more blade inside the handle)?
+ Or are the pivots placed that much differently?

Anyway, these numbers are one of the reasons I prefer the Chap a lot just by the specs:
Almost as compact in carry (in length, in thickness it is even a better carry) but offering much more blade and edge in relation and first and foremost also a thinner, slicier blade that still is really robust.

This mirrors just my own, subjective preferences of course.

[Wartstein]

...Completely different story with the Native 5: HERE a choil actually makes the LEAST sense imho.
A choil-less Native 5 would, differently to the Lil Native, definitely offer enough space on the handle for almost all hand sizes AND give us more cutting edge. Win-win in my book. While the current Native 5 unnecessarily forces hands like mine to choke up on the choil that additionally eats up edge length, while the overall actual handle length would be more than long enough for a good four finger grip if it had NO choil.....

^ Very much agree. Mark me down as another afi who would like to see a variant of the standard Native get "Bodaciousized" with a forward design and a very limited ricasso.

This would be so cool. If such a variant would also get a delica-ish, thinner blade it could very well become my most favorite folder in that (small) size range!

As it is, for my hand size and my preferences:
I find the Native 5 to be perhaps the coolest looking Spydie ever.
But practically speaking I look at that substantial overall handle size and thickness and can´t help but think: "If they got rid of the choil and just used that whole available handle length to create one, good grip (yes, like on the Bodacious) my not small hands would easily fit there with all four fingers, plus a blade with no choil in it would offer a lot more edge". Win-win in my book.

Completely the opposite with DFly, Lil Native and Chap: On THOSE shorter models for my handsize a choil is mandatory if a four finger grip is the goal

[Wartstein]

One advantage this idea would have is a cutting edge as long as the Chaparral. The Chaparral is really hard to beat, I know. I have two and wonderful knives they are. The LN would benefit and still keep the blade legal in most places, though.

Doc, just to be sure:

Your idea would mean indeed, that, yes, a handle forward Lil Native would offer more cutting edge - but also no longer a good four finger grip, right? Since the overall grip area inevitably would get shorter if the handle stays at the same length, but there would be no additional grip length through the blade part of a choil?

Not saying this is a bad idea by any means, don´t get me wrong!
It would just be a very compact basically three finger knife with a good amount of edge.

But, as a follow up to my previous post: IF one goes in the direction of "more or less three finger knife with a lot of edge":
Imagine you´d transfer your handle forward idea to the CHAPARRAL:
As it is now already the Chap is almost as short when closed as the Lil Native, but has a lot more blade in that handle.
If the Chap would go handle forward (so no choil), we could potentially end up with almost RockJumper edge length in an almost Lil Native shortish handle...

Though that said:
I think in order to get maximum edge length in a handle forward design, the comp.lock does better than the backlock... the latter will always have that "kick" / ricasso, just hidden in a handle forward backlock knife, but still "costing" edge length.

[Doc Dan]

One advantage this idea would have is a cutting edge as long as the Chaparral. The Chaparral is really hard to beat, I know. I have two and wonderful knives they are. The LN would benefit and still keep the blade legal in most places, though.

Doc, just to be sure:

Your idea would mean indeed, that, yes, a handle forward Lil Native would offer more cutting edge - but also no longer a good four finger grip, right? Since the overall grip area inevitably would get shorter if the handle stays at the same length, but there would be no additional grip length through the blade part of a choil?

Not saying this is a bad idea by any means, don´t get me wrong!
It would just be a very compact basically three finger knife with a good amount of edge.

But, as a follow up to my previous post: IF one goes in the direction of "more or less three finger knife with a lot of edge":
Imagine you´d transfer your handle forward idea to the CHAPARRAL:
As it is now already the Chap is almost as short when closed as the Lil Native, but has a lot more blade in that handle.
If the Chap would go handle forward (so no choil), we could potentially end up with almost RockJumper edge length in an almost Lil Native shortish handle...

Though that said:
I think in order to get maximum edge length in a handle forward design, the comp.lock does better than the backlock... the latter will always have that "kick" / ricasso, just hidden in a handle forward backlock knife, but still "costing" edge length.

First, there is a difference in where the pivots are placed on the LN and Chap. The LN has more handle in front of the pivot. If the finger guard were right at the end of the handle I believe most people could get at least a three and a half finger grip on the knife. It would make the grip about the same as the grip behind the finger bump on the UKPK.

The Chaparral is a stellar design. What doing this mod to a LN would mean is that the knife would still be legal in most jurisdictions and have the same cutting edge as the Chaparral. This is a win. Maybe they can change the name to Apache Native or Cherokee Native.

[Wartstein]

One advantage this idea would have is a cutting edge as long as the Chaparral. The Chaparral is really hard to beat, I know. I have two and wonderful knives they are. The LN would benefit and still keep the blade legal in most places, though.

Doc, just to be sure:

Your idea would mean indeed, that, yes, a handle forward Lil Native would offer more cutting edge - but also no longer a good four finger grip, right? Since the overall grip area inevitably would get shorter if the handle stays at the same length, but there would be no additional grip length through the blade part of a choil?

Not saying this is a bad idea by any means, don´t get me wrong!
It would just be a very compact basically three finger knife with a good amount of edge.

But, as a follow up to my previous post: IF one goes in the direction of "more or less three finger knife with a lot of edge":
Imagine you´d transfer your handle forward idea to the CHAPARRAL:
As it is now already the Chap is almost as short when closed as the Lil Native, but has a lot more blade in that handle.
If the Chap would go handle forward (so no choil), we could potentially end up with almost RockJumper edge length in an almost Lil Native shortish handle...

Though that said:
I think in order to get maximum edge length in a handle forward design, the comp.lock does better than the backlock... the latter will always have that "kick" / ricasso, just hidden in a handle forward backlock knife, but still "costing" edge length.

First, there is a difference in where the pivots are placed on the LN and Chap. The LN has more handle in front of the pivot. If the finger guard were right at the end of the handle I believe most people could get at least a three and a half finger grip on the knife. It would make the grip about the same as the grip behind the finger bump on the UKPK.

The Chaparral is a stellar design. What doing this mod to a LN would mean is that the knife would still be legal in most jurisdictions and have the same cutting edge as the Chaparral. This is a win. Maybe they can change the name to Apache Native or Cherokee Native.

Thanks Doc!

And I get your point concerning legality in most places! Makes sense!

[Doc Dan]

One advantage this idea would have is a cutting edge as long as the Chaparral. The Chaparral is really hard to beat, I know. I have two and wonderful knives they are. The LN would benefit and still keep the blade legal in most places, though.

Doc, just to be sure:

Your idea would mean indeed, that, yes, a handle forward Lil Native would offer more cutting edge - but also no longer a good four finger grip, right? Since the overall grip area inevitably would get shorter if the handle stays at the same length, but there would be no additional grip length through the blade part of a choil?

Not saying this is a bad idea by any means, don´t get me wrong!
It would just be a very compact basically three finger knife with a good amount of edge.

But, as a follow up to my previous post: IF one goes in the direction of "more or less three finger knife with a lot of edge":
Imagine you´d transfer your handle forward idea to the CHAPARRAL:
As it is now already the Chap is almost as short when closed as the Lil Native, but has a lot more blade in that handle.
If the Chap would go handle forward (so no choil), we could potentially end up with almost RockJumper edge length in an almost Lil Native shortish handle...

Though that said:
I think in order to get maximum edge length in a handle forward design, the comp.lock does better than the backlock... the latter will always have that "kick" / ricasso, just hidden in a handle forward backlock knife, but still "costing" edge length.

First, there is a difference in where the pivots are placed on the LN and Chap. The LN has more handle in front of the pivot. If the finger guard were right at the end of the handle I believe most people could get at least a three and a half finger grip on the knife. It would make the grip about the same as the grip behind the finger bump on the UKPK.

The Chaparral is a stellar design. What doing this mod to a LN would mean is that the knife would still be legal in most jurisdictions and have the same cutting edge as the Chaparral. This is a win. Maybe they can change the name to Apache Native or Cherokee Native.

Thanks Doc!

And I get your point concerning legality in most places! Makes sense!

Yes, because the overall size is about the same as the Chaparral. It is the blade that could be made better and the handle could too, and remain legal. I have to admit I don't like that finger peak thing sticking up between my fingers.