MT40P – HIC Mule Team Dropping Soon!

[TomAiello]

I don't think it's fair to fault Spyderco when a totally experimental blade in a totally experimental material doesn't live up to whatever expectations you've created for it.

I bought several of the Rahven kitchen knives (which cost less) before deciding to buy the HIC mule. I had a fairly good idea of what to expect (knives that feel a lot duller than their cutting performance, but keep a working edge basically forever, and can be snapped if you aren't reasonably careful with them). It's odd to me that people who were making their initial investigation into this material with the mule are disappointed to have learned about the material.

I'm completely happy with the HIC mule, because I had a pretty good idea of what to expect. I had a good idea what to expect because I have several of the (readily available) Rahven knives made from HIC. Even if I didn't though, there has been plenty of discussion of the material, both here and elsewhere.

The point of a mule is to learn about the material (steel or otherwise) being used. This run definitely achieves that objective.

[Fireman]

I really like the idea of a cork handle to have a knife that can float for kayaking. I lost a couple expensive knives kayaking. It won’t need an additional float.

[Sndmn11]

I don't think it's fair to fault Spyderco when a totally experimental blade in a totally experimental material doesn't live up to whatever expectations you've created for it.

...

The point of a mule is to learn about the material (steel or otherwise) being used. This run definitely achieves that objective.

I understand your perspective; I don't agree that will it cut or not is intended to be the experimental part. Reading the Spyderco response of ~"you guys wanted it so we made it, we don't know much about it"~

while we know quite bit about blade steels and blade steel edges, we are certainly not as expertise in HIC ceramic. We had to sharpen them
ourselves, as best we could, because their factory edge was far worse.

We made it because you asked for it. We re going to learn about it as you will, and we'll all share.

sal

From my perspective, that of someone who initially handed over money for some, I don't buy a knife from a top tier production knife company with any notion that the company has waivering confidence. The product description talks HIC up as if it were vetted, tested, and is ready for user feedback, which is far from Sal's comments on this thread.

I'm a bit surprised that most of the comments concerning the HIC Mule is comparing sharpness, that it doesn't get as sharp as steel.

I was hoping that most would see this as a new "Potential" cutting tool. Please use the knives and lets see what they will and will not do? It's not a steel and to date, it has not been as sharp as steel.

sal

I've never read anything regarding the Mule Team Project being a test of if some has cutting potential. I've read it as KNIFE testing for user feedback to discover edge retention, material properties, and long term market viability. Not as a test to see if a material has the potential to cut. If this particular Mule was intended to discover if it would potentially cut (or not) that should be in the product copy...

"Hey potential Mule Team HIC owner! We aren't experts in HIC and we have not gotten this as sharp as steel. You should go into this to discover if HIC has the potential to be a knife and this will be an instance where we gain 99% of our knowledge from paying customers."

From my perspective, that would be a "fair" approach, rather than selling out with the current stellar product description, and then coming through the backdoor with downplayed backpedaling. It's damaged the brand trust I had for sure.

[sal]

Hi Sndmn11,

I'm sorry for your disappointment and not meeting your expectations. I don't think we hyped the product. We shared what experience we had. There was a lot of discussion about the material on this forum. I' also sorry that you feel your "investment" in the Mule team was that we somehow cheated you, and it damaged your trust in our company.

We have a great deal of time and funds invested to be able to get this knife to you. I don't think you will have a problem selling it or it really bothers you, send it back to us. The Mule Team project is not a regular part of our business. It's a team project that we share with our Forumites that have interest in working with blade materials that are not readily available at affordable prices.

Some use it for testing and learning. Some us it for making handles and sheaths. Some use them as gifts. I guess you are fairly new to this, so we'll do whatever it takes to make you happy.

sal
_______________________________________________________________________________________-

"A goal in life is to be consistent like the sun and transparent like the air. That's how trust is built....and trust is the true bottom line".

[kennbr34]

Hi Sndmn11,

I'm sorry for your disappointment and not meeting your expectations. I don't think we hyped the product. We shared what experience we had. There was a lot of discussion about the material on this forum. I' also sorry that you feel your "investment" in the Mule team was that we somehow cheated you, and it damaged your trust in our company.

We have a great deal of time and funds invested to be able to get this knife to you. I don't think you will have a problem selling it or it really bothers you, send it back to us. The Mule Team project is not a regular part of our business. It's a team project that we share with our Forumites that have interest in working with blade materials that are not readily available at affordable prices.

Some use it for testing and learning. Some us it for making handles and sheaths. Some use them as gifts. I guess you are fairly new to this, so we'll do whatever it takes to make you happy.

sal
_______________________________________________________________________________________-

"A goal in life is to be consistent like the sun and transparent like the air. That's how trust is built....and trust is the true bottom line".

I'm going to preface this by saying that I already sold my HIC Mule, and I'm happy enough with the return. I didn't cover the cost, but I basically paid what I think is fair for trying out a new material.

That said, I would like to know if you would have warrantied my blade? Again, I'm the one with the video running my finger all up and down it in a way that makes people cringe thinking it's going to suddenly erupt in a fountain of blood, but somehow miraculously doesn't.

To me... That's really the big difference here. I feel like I could have sent it right back to Spyderco and said, "This edge sucks, can I have my money back?" and I probably would have gotten a refund. But I tried to do what I could with it, and still wasn't satisfied, and I wasn't going to try to return it under warranty after I had not only used it, but changed the edge profile. In the meantime, someone else got a HIC Mule at a pretty bargain-rate price.

I do still understand Sndmn11's frustrations, but I'm also trying to put all things into perspective here. I don't think that Spyderco "hyped" the knife, but I also think they could have been more clear in their initial marketing in saying that this material was not like steel. As much as I feel like it's fair to say that I should have done my own research in finding out if this material was really like steel or not, I also think it's fair to say that Spyderco didn't really do enough to inform the consumer that what they were getting was not really comparable to steel and that an end-user shouldn't expect an edge comparable to what a steel blade would take. Many users have pointed out that there were several manufactures of this blade out there, but I would counter that with saying that there were also many YouTube testers out there who tested it in edge-retention and never made mention of the many nuanced differences. To expect that every consumer is going to have the time to scour internet forums to read every review of a material is not really realistic. But, again, at the same time, the information was out there. I think that Spyderco and the disgruntled consumer should meet in the middle on this one.

So, again... As much as I was deeply disappointed by this particular Mule, and as much as I think Spyderco could have marketed it in a way that would have spared me that disappointment, I'm still not going so far as to say it changes my view of them as a company. However, that being said, I think that there is a little bit of changing what was promised after-the-fact going on here. I also am willing to accept that is totally down to my own preconceived notions, rather than anything Spyderco actually promised. But let's be really precise here...

https://web.archive.org/web/20231206065 ... e-HIC/2508

One of the most unique Mule Team blades ever offered, the MT40 Mule is made from High-Impact Ceramic (HIC)—a state-of-the-art Ceramic Injection Molding (CIM) material. Developed by Harcane Industries of Switzerland, this remarkable zirconia-based material is significantly more resistant to breakage than conventional ceramics. It is specially formulated to obtain the highest density during sintering, giving it exceptional toughness and resistance to crack propagation. This proprietary material also achieves far greater hardness than steel blades, allowing it to both cut and retain its edge incredibly well. Because this blade is produced by an injection-molding process, its full tang only includes the holes necessary for handle-scale mounting. The additional weight-reduction holes seen in steel Mules have been eliminated. All Mule Team blades are sold consumer direct and available only at the Spyderco Factory Outlet or through Spyderco.com.

The only thing here describing any difference between this and a steel blade is a remark about its hardness. There is nothing here that states that it is unlike a conventional steel edge. So in my opinion, a consumer has every reason to believe that this is implying that it will have the same characteristics as a steel blade, but that the edge retention will be greater. However, in my experience, and in the experience of many others, we have found that it is far from analogous to steel.

In the meantime, the current page doesn't really do much else to describe the difference between this material and steel either, and I think that is the real disservice. Yes, it's an experimental material; yes, there is plenty of information out there about it; yes; there isn't anything on the description page saying that it's a replacement for steel, but I think that adding a simple disclaimer that a consumer shouldn't expect a material that's directly comparable to steel is only fair. It's kind of interesting to me that, as of yet, the product description page has not been changed to reflect that:

https://web.archive.org/web/20240224003 ... e-HIC/2508

Again, I think that there's nothing here to really substantiate anything that is under-handed by Spyderco at all. On the other hand, I think they really need to step up and make the consumer aware that this is not a material that is analogous to steel.

[Ramonade]

Well, the Mule team isn't a standard production item. It's not originally made for the usual end line user. The targeted public is "experienced" people who'll know what to try and do with it.

The main thing here would be : can people sucessfully sharpen a HIC knife or is it a non starter ? If we manage to get it relatively sharp, can we use it for basic tasks or is it too brittle ? Can it be a viable substitute for steel in particular applications ? We've only seen it commercialized by Rahven for now, and strictly for food usage.

I've just read the website's description again, and it does indeed say that "Whether you are a blade-material connoisseur, a hobbyist looking for a unique “kit” blade, or a die-hard Spyderco collector, the HIC Mule will proudly meet your needs." which implies a broader audience. But it's still not intended to be sold like a PM2, Bow River or Stok.

It's a costly way for Spyderco to give us the ability answer our own questions about the material (the whole run hasn't even dropped yet, it could sit a while on shelves). Since it's all about the material, my thought was that the people interested in buying it would've read a lot about it before hand.

[standy99]

This Mule team has always been a testing platform for new steels and products. I have probably 5-7 steels that are not available as a knife maker let alone have a fully functional knife that is heat treated and sharp (just missing a handle even though I can buy one)
As a knife maker I battle to make a quality knife in the price range that I buy Mules in upcoming new experimental steels. Starting out putting handles on Mule Team knives has led me to making knives.

We as a Mule team asked for the HIC Mule and we were fully aware it was a new product. 110% knowing it was not steel and would not behave like steel. It is a ceramic and Spyderco mentions this

the MT40 Mule is made from High-Impact Ceramic (HIC)—a state-of-the-art Ceramic Injection Molding (CIM) material. Developed by Harcane Industries of Switzerland


I was fully aware it was a new platform for knife material and that sharpening would be a challenge and require specific special sharpening equipment. Hence I didn’t buy one.. And I was a butcher for 20 plus years and I could sharpen a baseball bat to cut like a knife.

I’m sorry that the HIC didn’t meet many expectations as a razor out of the box that would stay sharp forever but it was not what I was expecting.
But I do believe with the right knowledge and testing and sharpening of this will lead to a great slicer that will hold an edge for a long time.

But to claim Spyderco didn’t tell you about anything. Just read about what the Mule represents that is listed at the top of the page before you scroll down to buy a Mule

Spyderco's Mule Team Project is one of the most unique programs in the commercial knife industry. By definition, a "mule" is a sample knife used for in-house performance testing. Traditionally, they are made to the exact same pattern and specifications, but feature a different blade steel or heat treatment protocol. This keeps all the performance characteristics of the knife identical except for a single variable, allowing an excellent basis for objective, scientific performance-based testing.

[sal]

Hi Kennbr,

Again, you have my apology for your disappointment and for anything that we might have done to confuse you regarding the HIC Mule. I'm also sorry that you lost money on the deal. That was not our intention in doing the project. For you or for Sndmn.

We don't really Market Mules as we would other models because of the nature of the project. We will try to be more careful in future presentations. I will be more careful in describing the Obsidian Mule.....just kidding. No F'n way would I try to make another Mule in Obsidian.

We sill have more Mules to deliver. I assure that it has been a PITA for us as well to create this Mule. Hopefully we not have too many more folks that are disappointed, which might hurt the project. I will also say that the Spyderco crew is not pleased with me for doing this HIC Mule project, which is taking time away from our other responsibilities.

sal

[JestersHK]

I'll go ahead and say I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I'm pretty ecstatic with both my HIC Mules. No they are not the sharpest Mules I own, but they are sharp enough for a good pack knife, and I love the fact I'm able to test these out.

I'll have one in the water for the entire weekend this weekend and won't have to worry about rust. I have faith it will perform all I'll ask of it.

Appreciate all the work the Spyderco team put into making this happen for us, I appreciate all the testers as well sharing their experiences both good and bad.

[kennbr34]

Hi Kennbr,

Again, you have my apology for your disappointment and for anything that we might have done to confuse you regarding the HIC Mule. I'm also sorry that you lost money on the deal. That was not our intention in doing the project. For you or for Sndmn.

We don't really Market Mules as we would other models because of the nature of the project. We will try to be more careful in future presentations. I will be more careful in describing the Obsidian Mule.....just kidding. No F'n way would I try to make another Mule in Obsidian.

We sill have more Mules to deliver. I assure that it has been a PITA for us as well to create this Mule. Hopefully we not have too many more folks that are disappointed, which might hurt the project. I will also say that the Spyderco crew is not pleased with me for doing this HIC Mule project, which is taking time away from our other responsibilities.

sal

Thanks for responding, sal. I just want to specify, I'm only disappointed in HIC. I don't think it reflects on Spyderco as a company. I mean, what other company even does a project like the Mule project, let alone has their founder responding and taking customer's opinions to heart. I think it's always a risk of being disappointed with an experimental material, so I agree with people pointing that out to a certain extent, but I'm glad you agree that more could be done with the presentation approach to prevent people from getting the wrong idea.

Hopefully nothing I say about this release hinders the overall longevity of the Mule program. I think that it's important for such a project to be honest, though.

On the plus side of things... As disappointed as I am with HIC, I also managed to pick up a Mule in T15 and that' far exceeded my expectations. The interesting part about that, was that it was out of stock for a long time before the launch of the HIC, so if not for my interest in HIC and being on the site that day, I would have missed out on that. There's always a bright side.

[elmeringalo]

Good luck with the Mule project! The HIC blade is a luxury and now what you need to do is achieve optimal sharpening. I think that's on the way. At least I'm going to try and I'm sure it will come to fruition. I just received my MT40. Let's get going with it!

[Tucson Tom]

Well, I have always viewed the mule team project as a unique way to participate in some "cutting edge" knife stuff (pardon the awful pun). I was happy to get one of these HIC blades as part of my education no matter how it all turned out. I guess they are all kinds of different ways to view the whole mule team, and not all of them really fit with the actual intention.

I am glad to have one of these and it will be a personal challenge to sharpen it. It will be an even bigger personal challenge not to snap the doggone thing.

[DocJekl]

Definitely a little more chippy than my M398, AEB-L or Magnacut Mules. I will probably use HIC this for food prep when camping, with my Rex45 or T15 for harder work when camping if my 4.5" Carothers knives are too big for a job. My other Mules may be be better EDC materials.

I bought two of these, so I may still keep trying one as an EDC, or a car knife that wont rust.

[vanka]

Mine just turned up. Right out of the box it slices receipts with ease and shaving forearm hairs. The type of shave that a not very sharp blade does if that makes sense. We'll see how it goes, but I'm planning to use it mainly in the kitchen and light tasks that don't put too much stress on the blade. As far as I understand the purpose of HIC is to stay sharp for a very long time and not to be abused in the forest or in some sort of survival scenario. The keyword "Ceramic" determines the purpose of the knife.

[bleasure]

I did not have the fortune of disposable income to spend on this mule, which I've looked forward to for some time. This is one of the most interesting objects Spyderco's released, and I imagine it was challenging to manufacture. I think it's fantastic it was developed and offered for testing, and hope to use it someday. I was and am excited about the strange and interesting properties this material has. But I can not imagine clowning myself as hard as some of the commenters are here. They don't deserve apologies, they deserve to be dunked on for the absolute planks they're being, and hopefull will manage to interrogate their own aversion to taking any responsibility for their assumptions, feelings, and failures, which is to say, I hope they grow up.

So you 1. Bought a test knife from Spyderco's experimental materials project, something hardly anyone outside of people interested in knives and knife materials would have ever heard of. You assert that these experimental, purpose-built for testing knives should be 'finished consumer objects.' Many appear to have assumed these would be sharper than obsidian, when the claims have always been about lasting power, not keenness. I don't know.... buy a Delica if you want a finished product? Or a scalpel?

2. Got angry about the company 'misleading' you due to your own low reading comprehension. I'm sorry you pulled the trigger before you paid seemingly any attention to or asked any questions about what the actual *words* on the page actually meant, or without doing *any* research into this explicitly identified experimental knife material. You not pausing to consider what "CERAMIC" might mean is spectacularly funny.

3. Insist the company do your thinking for you, which is even funnier. Let's be clear, this isn't some harmfully designed technology rolled out at scale without appropriate design/ethics considerations, something that can have meaningful consequences on many people or society at large, like so much digital tech or destructive ag inputs. This is a test-run *hobby knife* that you must actively seek out to purchase. Take a breath, chew over owning responsibility for your many biases, presumptions, and cognitive failures, and grow from it.

[sal]

Hi DocJekl,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[SchoonerBum]

Well this has been interesting reading. As someone who missed the initial release I’m excited that there will be another batch coming and I hope I’m able to pick one up! I’m excited to play with the ceramic - for the cost of a couple of fancy dinners out I can have a new rustproof material to experiment with? Sign me up! I just hope I’m in internet range when the next drop happens.

Really I just want to add mine to the voices saying thank you to Spyderco for putting this out there. It’s a very cool project!

[DocJekl]

Speaking of Rustproof, I’d love to see a Vanax 37 Mule

[shunsui]

...
3. Insist the company do your thinking for you, ...

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, but thanks for that well written commentary.

[kennbr34]

I did not have the fortune of disposable income to spend on this mule, which I've looked forward to for some time. This is one of the most interesting objects Spyderco's released, and I imagine it was challenging to manufacture. I think it's fantastic it was developed and offered for testing, and hope to use it someday. I was and am excited about the strange and interesting properties this material has. But I can not imagine clowning myself as hard as some of the commenters are here. They don't deserve apologies, they deserve to be dunked on for the absolute planks they're being, and hopefull will manage to interrogate their own aversion to taking any responsibility for their assumptions, feelings, and failures, which is to say, I hope they grow up.

So you 1. Bought a test knife from Spyderco's experimental materials project, something hardly anyone outside of people interested in knives and knife materials would have ever heard of. You assert that these experimental, purpose-built for testing knives should be 'finished consumer objects.' Many appear to have assumed these would be sharper than obsidian, when the claims have always been about lasting power, not keenness. I don't know.... buy a Delica if you want a finished product? Or a scalpel?

2. Got angry about the company 'misleading' you due to your own low reading comprehension. I'm sorry you pulled the trigger before you paid seemingly any attention to or asked any questions about what the actual *words* on the page actually meant, or without doing *any* research into this explicitly identified experimental knife material. You not pausing to consider what "CERAMIC" might mean is spectacularly funny.

3. Insist the company do your thinking for you, which is even funnier. Let's be clear, this isn't some harmfully designed technology rolled out at scale without appropriate design/ethics considerations, something that can have meaningful consequences on many people or society at large, like so much digital tech or destructive ag inputs. This is a test-run *hobby knife* that you must actively seek out to purchase. Take a breath, chew over owning responsibility for your many biases, presumptions, and cognitive failures, and grow from it.

When a company engages in an experimental project such as this which seeks feedback from its consumers, it's hilarious to think that it should never expect any of that feedback to be negative, and even more hilarious its fans would take more umbrage with said negative feedback than the company itself.

If this exotic material is so profoundly incomparable to steel that it can't be expected to come with an edge sharper than disposable plastic utensils, that has nothing to do with the consumer's lack of reading ability, but with the company's lack of due diligence in disclosing that information on their product page. This also has nothing to do with expecting a finished product, and everything to do with telling the company they're not ready to release a finished product in said material if that's the best they can do with it.

I don't have time to both make my disposable income and scour internet forums for obscure information related to the materials tested, particularly with one as esoteric as this; that information should be on the product page, and anyone suggesting that the description of this material on said product page wasn't implying that it would perform similarly to steel is being disingenuous. On top of that, I use what spare time I have to fulfill the Mule team's intended goal, and actually test these materials. In addition to other actual data and testing I've done on other steel Mules, I've offered Sal constructive criticism about how viable I believe HIC is as a material consumers may actually desire, and how Spyderco can be more fair to the disgruntled consumers--which if your reading comprehension is as high as you've implied, you'd have noticed I am not one of.

What have you contributed here with your self-proclaimed "dunking" and middle-school vernacular of "clowning," other than suggesting a pretty clear reason why you didn't have the money to actually try one of these--which just points to another hilarity of you thinking you have more of a leg to stand on in commenting than those who did. Fortunately I am adept at tailoring my language to speak to people on their level: You can go ahead and take 'em out of your mouth, Sal's skin is thick enough he doesn't need his fanboys to defend him.