Upping the price.

[Jack48]

Could you elaborate more on that? What are the other companies of which you speak and what are they doing?

sal

This question wasn't directed at me but I will comment. Here is one of my purchases this week, a Vosteed Nightshade. This is a $70 knife with Nitro-V steel, liner lock, bearings, skeletonized liners, and micarta scales.




I'm sending it back because it's actually the wrong version (I ordered the thumbhole version). I don't care for the blackwash but otherwise this knife is really, really impressive. The edge is unbelievably sharp. 0.016" behind the edge. The rough micarta feels great. The scales are contoured, not just flat slabs. The clip is unexciting but works well. Ergos are good. Action is amazing.

The thumbstud version is IMO dangerous. The blade flies out once you overcome the detente and your thumb can trail behind it. Is this why Spyderco doesn't do a lot of knives on bearings?

There has been a lot of talk in this thread about how Spyderco designs have some quality (soul, charisma) and the stuff we see from competitors don't. In general I agree with this intangible. But this knife has soul IMO. It's supposed to channel the famous Shilin Cutter knives from a certain part of China.

Anyway, look at that knife and think: this is what the Astute or Tenacious are up against.

I’d classify most of Spyderco’s most popular knives like the Seki back locks and most Golden models as fairly basic user designs. They’re good user designs but unfortunately aren’t really priced as such anymore. Mostly simple FFG clip point or leaf shape blades, little if any contouring on the scales, pretty basic scale materials, etc. A personal peeve of mine is that on the Taichung knives like the Sage the sharpened edge starts right at the ricasso/choil nub. On several recent Golden purchases there was a pretty significant amount of unsharpened steel before the edge grind started, and then another fairly significant amount of only partially sharpened steel where the grind started. Easy enough to fix but frankly almost $200 knives shouldn’t be leaving the factory like that IMO.

I picked up a Kizer October titanium frame lock model with 20CV blade on sale for $120. It has nice titanium scales with a very detailed pattern, elegant(at least IMO) blade shape, good flipper action on bearings, just overall a very elegant looking knife with great attention to detail. Is the heat treat the best on the market? I have no idea, all I can say is performs very well for what a fancy knife like this is typically used for, which is not cutting cardboard, straps, and rope all day.

For a user I’ve been liking the QSP Penguin line. Very nice user blade shape, and the titanium frame lock/154CM models go on sale for $60-$80 fairly often. There are also some S35VN exclusives with premium handle materials for under $100.

The CIVIVI Vision FG is another very well made and pretty unique design. Not a design I’d personally carry but a refined and pretty unique knife all the same.

There’s a lot of interesting designs out there with “soul” these days.

[benja-man]

For what it's worth, I prefer washers over bearings, which gives Spyderco a big head start over the competition. Sure, it's a personal preference of mine but it rules out a lot of competitors.

[phaust]

You can argue Kershaw sells more so scale prices that way, but small makers also are beating Spyderco in pricing.

Some examples, Dead Reconing Knives offers an American made titanium integral with (optional) sculpted handles and MagnaCut blade for $425; compare that to the $644 for the Taiwan made integral Spyderco Paysan (S90v is definitely more cost here, but not nearly that much).

Another, Toor is making all titanium RILs in one of the most expensive areas of the U.S. (San Diego county) for the same prices Spyderco sells their Taiwan to frame locks at. I paid under $200 for my og Merchant a few years back, all ti and s35vn blade.

Quiet Carry has been discussed here (non US production but good quality and materials). I believe Sal said he couldn't make the Drift for the cost Quiet Carry does(?). Vero offers similar premium designs outsourced.

I do think Spyderco levels up their knives in some ways that others don't and get overlooked. Nice full flat grinds, satin blades, recessed liners. However many consumers don't value those things. I don't know how many times I've seen someone say they wish Spyderco would switch to stonewashed blades, and just yesterday on the Spyderco reddit a few folks talked about how they prefer the sandwich style handles of the crucarta PM2 to the recessed liners. When consumers don't value your value-ads, it will be hard to see the reason to pay the premium.

[270ultimate]

That Nightshade has the soul of a Lum Chinese Folder, IMHO.

[sal]

I think that most folks that know anything about China and International manufacturing and sales know that US makers really can't compete with Chinese made products simply because of the value of the Yuan. We've watched China take over many an industry simply because of the Yuan valuation. That's why so many manufacturers actually make their products in China, which is proving to be somewhat of a problem for US makers in any market. Many products that were made in the US are no longer made in the US because of the low cost of Chinese manufacturing.

Those of you that are offering Chinese made knives as examples are not aware of the Yuan/Dollar comparison. New Balance makes most of their tennis shoes in China, They do make some in the US but they are at least double the price, and I would guess they make far more profit on the Chinese made Tennis shoes than the US made tennis shoes.

If China takes over the knife industry as they have taken over many other industries because of the unfair valuation, your choices will be limited as they are now in many industries.

I would be more interested in hearing about manufacturers actually making knives in fair trade countries.

sal

[sal]

Hi Jack,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[Jack48]

You can argue Kershaw sells more so scale prices that way, but small makers also are beating Spyderco in pricing.

Some examples, Dead Reconing Knives offers an American made titanium integral with (optional) sculpted handles and MagnaCut blade for $425; compare that to the $644 for the Taiwan made integral Spyderco Paysan (S90v is definitely more cost here, but not nearly that much).

Another, Toor is making all titanium RILs in one of the most expensive areas of the U.S. (San Diego county) for the same prices Spyderco sells their Taiwan to frame locks at. I paid under $200 for my og Merchant a few years back, all ti and s35vn blade.

Quiet Carry has been discussed here (non US production but good quality and materials). I believe Sal said he couldn't make the Drift for the cost Quiet Carry does(?). Vero offers similar premium designs outsourced.

I do think Spyderco levels up their knives in some ways that others don't and get overlooked. Nice full flat grinds, satin blades, recessed liners. However many consumers don't value those things. I don't know how many times I've seen someone say they wish Spyderco would switch to stonewashed blades, and just yesterday on the Spyderco reddit a few folks talked about how they prefer the sandwich style handles of the crucarta PM2 to the recessed liners. When consumers don't value your value-ads, it will be hard to see the reason to pay the premium.

You can get a LionSteel titanium integral made in Italy as low as $250.

I prefer stonewash and DLC blades myself. Being in a semi-urban area being able to use a knife discretely can be useful in some situations. A shiny satin blade seems to attract a lot more attention. I’ve seen many other people say the same thing. Satin also shows scratches a lot more.

FFG can be nice if you want a super slicey knife. However let’s be realistic, most people aren’t using their knives very often, and probably not for tasks where they’re going to notice the advantage of a FFG. A lot of people want a blade that looks elegant, different, etc., That why the Benchmade 940 is so popular, not because it’s particularly good at cutting but because it looks like an elegant gentleman’s knife. Same with the tanto PM2, a lot of people want it because it looks nice and more fancy or refined than the standard basic FFG. Brands like Kershaw and the Chinese brands offer various different blade shapes for the same reason. It’s common for other brands to offer multiple blade shape versions of the same knife, or at least similar models.

Some people also tend to do things with knives that they really shouldn’t. FFG is probably the worst at holding up to that kind of use, especially with a big hole in the blade.

[spydergoat]

I feel that I got good value for what I paid for my Spydercos. I'd rather have a couple knives from a company like Spyderco than a drawer full of Chinese made flash in the pan designs. I have tried them and it's just not the same experience over the long term. Hogue used to be a great value for quality USA made knives but their prices have increased as well. Everything essential costs a lot more and the last thing most of us need to be worrying about is marginal price increases on luxury items like specialty pocket knives. Buy less knives, don't buy, whatever. The silly thing is to complain at Spyderco; I'm glad the company seems to be doubling down on American manufacturing and also committing to delivering quality stuff when it is made overseas.

[zhyla]

I would be more interested in hearing about manufacturers actually making knives in fair trade countries.

sal

Sal, have you looked at MKM’s knives lately? They have a Voxnaes design called the Isonzo that is pretty cool. I’ve almost bought one a couple times. $90 street price and made in Italy. I haven’t gotten one yet but reviews are very positive.

https://www.mkm.it/en/pr/isonzo/2971.html

[Scandi Grind]

I feel that I got good value for what I paid for my Spydercos. I'd rather have a couple knives from a company like Spyderco than a drawer full of Chinese made flash in the pan designs.

This exactly! I have no need for a large collection of knives that do fundamentally the same thing. I need a few good tools that work at as high a level as possible. I am definitely a quality over quantity sort of guy, especially when it comes to life's most fundamental and necessary tool.

FFG can be nice if you want a super slicey knife. However let’s be realistic, most people aren’t using their knives very often, and probably not for tasks where they’re going to notice the advantage of a FFG.

Some people also tend to do things with knives that they really shouldn’t. FFG is probably the worst at holding up to that kind of use, especially with a big hole in the blade.

I don't know about "most people" but I can say that I realistically benefit from my knife working efficiently and I do use it on a regular basis for things that I need to get done. I think this is perhaps why many of the real Spyderco "users" like their knives so much, because they are made to get things done. I think these are the people that Spyderco has most in mind with their designs, and I think they cater to "users" more than any other company.

And all I can say if someone wants to use a knife as a prybar is that that is their problem I suppose. Their are plenty of overbuilt knives to choose from if that is a preference, but I don't understand prying things with knives in general, not in small part due to safety concerns.

Again that is all for my own use, everybody's needs and preferences are different, but I think I represent exactly the kind of person Spyderco is trying to build for. The knife "user."

[Bolster]

FFG can be nice if you want a super slicey knife. However let’s be realistic, most people aren’t using their knives very often, and probably not for tasks where they’re going to notice the advantage of a FFG.

Surely you jest.

[zhyla]

I don’t think there’s much point in debating FFG pros and cons. It’s simply the standard. There are HG blades out there but they are much, much less common.

[sal]

Hey Jack,

Thanx for your input. We like to hear all points of view.

When we began our company 48 years ago, our motto and path was "Reliable-High-Performance. We're all about "the cut". High performance Matter Separators, they performed well, were safe and comfortable to use. Lasted and performed for a long time. You could rely on our products to do their job well. As Scandi mentioned, we made knives for users.

There are many types of knife buyers and we try to serve many of them, but first and foremost is the performance of the knives as cutting tools.

We make attractive knives for those that purchase their knives by how they look. We made knives that are for those that like to "play" with their knives, balisongs, flippers, autos, etc. But regardless of what the knife will be used for, they must be able to perform. Making knives perform means better materials, better designs, better tolerances, etc. That just cost more to do.

We like to think that a knife, at least one of our knives is more than just the sum of it's materials.

sal

[Wartstein]

Not trying to be "nice" to Spyderco, but this is my honest opinion:

Interesting discussion for sure, but at this point I wonder a bit what folks who are not happy with Spydercos pricing actually want to say and imply - ?

- I guess no one really thinks, especially after what Sal has said here so far, that Spyderco is a company that tries to "rip off" its customers (or business partners, or employees...), but calculates their prices to to be fair and to be of a margin that ensures quality, American jobs, honest and decent way of doing business and so on, plus make them money of course (I mean we all earn money one way or the other).
So the prices are what they are for good and by now explained in detail reasons.

- If one finds their prices too high: Buy less Spydercos, or buy cheaper purely Chinese made knives, or mix them with Spydercos or whatever. No one is telling anyone what they should buy, right?
(And let´s face it: From a practical point of view almost all of us could get along with one or two quality folders every ten or twenty years or so - it is not like folders are done after two weeks and need to be replaced constantly...)

- But consider what it is worth to you to support what Spyderco stands for. To repeat some points:

+ They currently invest in the expansion of their US facility, they create jobs there, not only "in house", but also in the building sector and so on instead of moving everything possible to China.
+ They counter the trend of China taking over the world market, with all the downsides that come with that (again: I have nothing against the Chinese people at all!! Just against this trend).
+ They really take their time till a model is right before they bring it on the market, they don´t look for the "quickest money" there - also true for steels, see Magnacut.
+ They appearantly are good to their employees
+ They are loyal to their business partners
+ and so on...

To me without any hesitation worth perhaps a few Euros (Dollars...) more.

[sal]

That's my cousin Gernot We pay him to say that.

sal

[CDEP]

When we began our company 48 years ago, our motto and path was "Reliable-High-Performance. We're all about "the cut". High performance Matter Separators, they performed well, were safe and comfortable to use. Lasted and performed for a long time. You could rely on our products to do their job well. As Scandi mentioned, we made knives for users.

[...]

We like to think that a knife, at least one of our knives is more than just the sum of it's materials.

sal

A while back I decided to try to get my partner into the knife hobby. I bought her a CIVIVI, a Kizer, and a CJRB. All solid little knives that I owed myself. Fun knives that are fine for opening packages and such.

She thought they were cute, and she carried and used them for a few months.

Then one day she didn't have a blade on her and I handed her my Dragonfly 2.

I never got it back.

Couple weeks later she decides to poke around on this very Spyderco website. Tells me to order her a Matriarch 2 and a Wilson Bow River!

She now has 10 Spyderco kitchen knives, including a couple Carter Itamae models for when she is getting serious in there.

I'm afraid to ask what she wanted the Matriarch 2 for.

During the last online seconds sale she asked for a "backup" Wilson Bow River, which is now her favorite daily kitchen utility knife - oh, and a third Bow River to be sent to her mom's house so she has one when she's there.

Haven't seen her carry or use the China brand folders in over a year. The DFly 2 that used to belong to me is her EDC now.

Me: "What do you like best about your Spydercos?"

Her: "They cut."

Yes, baby, that they do...

[Wartstein]

That's my cousin Gernot We pay him to say that.

sal

... payment on top of the ten free Golden Spydies I get per year for saying what I say, right ?!

[Brock O Lee]

I've been following this thread since inception, but refrained from commenting...

I'll start by saying I dislike paying more for any product as much as the next guy. Unfortunately we have to acknowledge the cost increases throughout the value-chain. From where I'm sitting, many of these contributing factors seem to be outside of Spyderco's control.

I do not care for the low cost Chinese-made knives, be it from Spyderco or any other brand. The main reasons are the lack of high-end steels and heat treatments.

On the other hand, many of Spyderco's models manufactured in the US and Japan are on the bleeding edge in this regard for mass-produced knives. Where else would we go for properly heat treated super steels like K390, Rex-45, Cruwear, Maxamet, 4V, 15V, S90V etc? Innovation in handling high-end and hard-to-work-with materials cost money. Most other manufacturers would not touch these steels with a barge pole, and for good reason. I am glad Spyderco is brave enough to bring them to market.

I am not buying as many as I used to, but I appreciate Spyderco's commitment to running a solid business based on their values, and I will continue to support excellence where I can, even though I hate to pay more.

[apollo]

That's my cousin Gernot We pay him to say that.

sal

... payment on top of the ten free Golden Spydies I get per year for saying what I say, right ?!

Give us a picture of the 10 of 2023 or it didnt happen...

[apollo]

My personal opinion on the on topic matter has kinda changed since last year.
Last year i was in the negative camp. But now eventhough i do not really know what caused the change of mind. I really believe Spyderco is doing there very best to keep its prices as low as possible. Also some stuff i have seen on the Amsterdam meet that i can not say anything about also gave me the feeling of all the effort Sal&co is doing to keep this problem at bay.
But i guess unless you guys in Amerika vote Sal for president i fear we all need to learn to live in this new crazy expensive world we live in today. Personally i am going to buy less like i did last year. But i will probably spend more on the expensive models and offcoarse my beloved Manixes.
By the way Sal. Thank you for creating that Framelock Tenacious! And for the Crucarta Manixes all of those are on my to buy list!!!